Sandhurst Commandant: The Brutal Truth About Command | Maj Gen Paul Nanson

Plans fail. People freeze. Information is incomplete. That’s when leadership stops being a theory and becomes a decision. 

I sit down with Paul Nanson, former Infantry Officer, Major General, and a previous commandant of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, to talk about what actually holds a team together when the night does not go to plan.

We start at the beginning: why he joined, what Sandhurst felt like in the moment, and what he learned the hard way after failing early selection and coming back stronger. 

If you’re preparing for AOSB, thinking about Sandhurst, or weighing the graduate versus non-graduate route, you’ll hear a grounded view of what matters most: purposeful preparation, fitness without self-inflicted injury, and trusting a system designed to identify potential rather than perfection.

From there we get into operational leadership and mission command. Paul shares how rehearsals and wargaming are not box-ticking, but a way to create shared understanding so that junior leaders can act decisively when chaos hits. We also unpack how leadership changes as you rise through the ranks, why senior leaders must work harder to stay connected to reality, and how Army leadership doctrine and the Centre for Army Leadership help make development consistent across all ranks.

We close on life after service: the shock of losing daily military community, what surprises him about civilian leadership development, and why veteran mental health support must make it easier to reach out early. If you take one thing away, let it be this: do the job in front of you well, build habits of excellence, and the next step tends to follow.

Subscribe for more conversations on military leadership, Sandhurst preparation, and the transition to civilian life, and if you found this useful, share it and leave a review.

Transcript

When Plans Fall Apart

SPEAKER_00 0:00

On the night, it didn't go to plan. I had no control. And that's that's the beauty of planning, making sure everybody understands what happens if this goes wrong. We all have our different journeys, don't we? But I I look back on mine and it was just a fantastic adventure. And yes, sometimes the process is frustrating, sometimes the process is long, but it's worth it.

Meet A Career Army Officer

SPEAKER_01 0:20

After serving a long career in the military, how did you find leaving? Guys, welcome back to the channel. Welcome back to the podcast. If you are listening, if you are watching, welcome back. It is great to have you with us for a conversation that I am really looking forward to. My guest today has a huge amount of experience as an army officer. Also was the commandant when I went to Sandhurst as well. And I also attended your dining out at the ITC Infantry Training Centre in Catarick, too. So there is a huge amount to get into with also a wealth of experience when it comes to operational leadership, which I think will add a lot of value to anyone that's going through the process or that is even just considering it. So, Paul, thanks very much for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. Do you want to give a quick intro to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, obviously, firstly, I was responsible for your training. So put that up. Yeah, Paul Nansen. Um, I come from come from Lancashire, come from a place called Omskirk, uh, joined the army at uh 19, joined the uh joined the TA, and then went to the regular army after school. Uh 34 years, uh served in the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, infantry officer. Um, finished finished six years ago, uh, came out in 2020 into COVID, which I'm sure we'll talk about later as well. Uh, and since then um worked in the leadership business, uh, a bit of leadership consultancy, a bit of coaching, uh, helping people think differently about their own leadership and their organization's leadership based on my experience, our experience uh in the military. Um, I live in I live in Trivenham uh with my wife. I've got two kids who are both growing up as I speak, both in university. Uh neither of them joined the army as well. And uh and yeah, delighted to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Great. Well, absolutely a lot to get into there. And I think especially as part of your role as the commandant, you sort of were the director of leadership as well. Yeah. Uh and oversaw what I think is fair to say, quite a change in how army leadership doctrine was put together and all that sort of stuff. So we'll absolutely come on to that. But maybe we start sort of at the start, which is why you joined and any sort of memories from your own sort of Sandhurst experience or RCB, as

Failing AOSB And Bouncing Back

SPEAKER_01 2:35

you mentioned before.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

So I grew up in a time when you know the the the Second World War wasn't that long ago, and there was still people around who had uh who had served. And I remember our next door neighbours um he uh was was old now, but he'd served, he'd served in the uh King's Regiment and uh had been at Monte Cassino and you know, and I and I uh and both his sons were going through the process of going to Sandhurst when I was little. So I sort of grew up with that influence and watching them go through their early military careers and thinking, you know, quite like that. Uh then I went to the cadets at when I was at school. Um and so really from quite an early age I I thought this is what I this is what I want to do. Um and um yeah, joined joined the uh was then the territorial army when I was in my sixth form of school. And uh and then the rest is history. I went to Sandhurst. So I went to Sandhurst twice actually. So I went I firstly went on a um a territorial army commissioning course. Oh yeah. So it was was was slightly different in those days, but um you you didn't have to do what uh uh AOSB like you do now. Oh really? Go into the territorials, so you go through a different process. Interesting. So I'd done that uh and and um and went to Sandhurst for a for a it was a modular course, bit like it is now. You did your modules away in your in your local unit area, and then you went to Sandhurst for a sort of culminatory two or three-week course at Sandhurst, and then you were commissioned, and then I was a second lieutenant in the uh in the King's Regiment as it was up in in Liverpool, which is where I come from. But in the meantime, I'd I'd uh I can't remember 17 I was, went to RCB and failed, uh, which was a real kick in the watts as you'd imagine, because you know I really, really wanted to be an officer. Uh and you know it was quite difficult for someone to say you're not you're not good enough. Uh but they did say, in fairness, they said go away and have another go. Uh you just need to go and sort out a few things. So I did. I um I went away and I tried to put right what they'd said and went back a couple of years later and um and was successful.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

There's a theme here, uh so I think this might be coming up to podcast number eight or nine for me. Right. And I'd say 50% might have come in and that have had really successful careers in whatever line, whether it's you know a long one in the military or or whatnot, um, or elsewhere, that failed their first time. And I I think I see this now with what I do, which is there is something about experiencing failure at a young age and knowing that you can't just wing everything, which really does help you prepare for the rest of sort of life as life's hurdles as such. Yeah. So it's interesting to hear you say that, but you were pretty young when you did it as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Relatively young. Uh, and I think people are maybe slightly older now, but I think the principles are the same. I've got I've got an awful lot of time for the Army Officer Selection Board. I think it's an amazing, it's an amazing process. Uh, and I think you just gotta trust the process. I mean, I do know that what gets through AOSB is is successful at Sandhurst. Yeah. So we're getting something right, you know. The the uh the failure, let's call them failure rates or or success rates at Sandhurst are such that you know I don't know when it in my in my time it was sort of 96-98% would get through, not necessarily all the first time, but they get through. Now that shows you that whatever happens at AOSB is right, yeah because the failures usually are through injuries or you know, people who just decide they don't want to do it. Rarely do you find someone who's just not up for it. Yeah, because AOSB finds that out. So it is it is sometimes a disappointing process, particularly if you get knocked back, but they do know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, you just gotta trust it. And you know, if you do experience a bit of failure the first time round, it's it's not the end of the world.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah, it's not the end of the world, and um, you know, just like like we say, bounce back, you know, tight your chin strap, bounce back and and uh and get on with it. And I know that's easy to say, and and I was absolutely gutted when I failed, uh, absolutely gutted, but you know, I had that purpose that I I I wanted to be an army officer. So uh, and like everyone else, if you've got that drive, you know, you will find a way.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

And the TA, the territorial army, that is similar now to our reserve force, right? Yeah, I'm pretty sure my brother did a similar thing where he had a reserve to a TA commission first and then came and did the regular sandhose, which I think is still quite a proven route for many people in the reserves, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Yeah, a lot from the OTCs, um, which is great, again, a great process, uh, and a lot want to sort of find their feet in the reserves first, you know, particularly if they're at university or doing something else, um, as a as a way to see if it's for them. And it's a great system. But now, of course, AOSB, an AOSB pass can take you into the reserves or the regulars. You know, it's one pass is good for both. So, quite rightly, it's one army.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Yeah, awesome. Um, okay, so to take you back to Sandhurst then as uh Officer Cadet Nansen. Yeah, what do you remember most? What stands out? What were maybe the biggest learning curves when you went through that process?

SPEAKER_00 7:39

So 1986,

Sandhurst Memories And Training Pace

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I went through on the regular course, uh SMC 861, um standard military course. So then there were they they they split the graduates from the non-graduates. So I was on I was a non-graduate, so I went through new college uh six months only. So started in January, finished, uh commissioned in August. So what do I remember about Sandhurst? It was a bit of a blur, to be honest with you. Um, it just went by very, very quickly. They they packed an awful lot into six months, and even though I had been through the territorial army bits and I'd had experience of serving, uh, I still found it pretty, pretty fast-paced. Uh, what do I remember about it? Um, it's a long time. Sometimes I struggle to remember what I had for breakfast. So you have to uh you have to bear with me, but I I just I just remembered the exercises stand out because they are such game changers, aren't they? They haven't really changed much. We had a marathon we had marathon, marathon chase. No, not marathon chase. Staple chase. No, I think it wasn't marathon chase, that was an exercise. What's the uh Long Ridge? Oh Long Ridge, sorry, yeah. The Long Ridge was the was the one that everyone remembers. Marathon Chase, I think, was an exercise. There was a digging exercise. You know, it was all the stuff that we do, but but it was it was quite quite compressed. So you remember those. You remember you know you remember the guys around you, you know, your platoon, um you know, six platoon, five platoon, normally company. Um you remember your coloursant, tufts, uh costume guards, you know, you re all the things that we we do you you remember, but you know, it was it was as you'd expect, it was it was hard work.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

You mentioned there that you were a non-grad, it'd be keen to just get your thoughts on maybe how that because back in the day, right? Yeah, or sorry, back in your day, yeah, back in Sud, right? Uh non-graduates are paid less as well than their peers, as far as I'm aware. And I think there's also I think that that might have changed and be brought back in line a few years before I joined. And I remember um going to Sanders, and the overwhelming majority were graduates, but and I'm sure that's still the case, but actually there's an increasing number of non-grads that are going, uh, you know, university fees and it and whatnot, and just the fact that maybe there's too many degrees that you could study out there now, and it's it's it's maybe lost whatever value it had. Do you reflect on on finding it more challenging than others because you didn't have a degree or not so much?

SPEAKER_00 10:03

I mean, I wasn't particularly intellectually blessed, I'll be honest. So I think even if I wanted to go to university, I wouldn't have my idea's rubbish, and you know, I I probably wouldn't have gone into university anyway. Did I struggle with that? I suppose, I mean, I think I mean let's take take the other way. I think that that now I don't I think university gives you an extra dimension to your your maturity, your life skills. You know, you've you've been around a bit long, you've had a few more experiences, uh, as well as the academic rigour that goes with going to university. So I don't I don't I don't think necessarily it's a bad thing that there's more more graduates now. I think they're they're probably more Sandhurst ready. But also I think for those people who just want to join the army, uh, and you know, as you quite rightly say, increasingly universities becoming very expensive, you know, choosing the right degree. It does it, you know, if there is another way, why wouldn't you go to Sandhurst? And

Graduates Non-Graduates And Readiness

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I know for a fact Sandhurst now offers, you know, the Army Higher Education Program offers non-graduates a chance to start accruing credits towards a a bachelor's degree with um with Reading University and Henry Business School. So you could sort of get the best best of both worlds. So I I don't I think the debate is is open. I I don't know what the stats are at the moment between grads and non-grads, but there's a place for both.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah, but but you know it's it's a question I I receive a lot online, and uh I didn't have a degree um and went through Sandhurst, and maybe there are a couple of essays that that I maybe struggled with more than my peers, but other than that, and I I went a bit older as well, so I'd been lived abroad and stuff, so I don't think I could have passed at a younger age. Yeah, so I needed that time to mature. And I think that's probably what the graduates have over non-graduates if they've had a bit more time.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

It's not necessarily the fact that they've got the degree, but um but but but I think also now um, you know, again, I'm out of date, but we were seeing a lot of people who not necessarily gone to university but have gone into a into into something, into uh a business or into a trade. Uh done a couple of years and just thought, this is not for me, I need something else. And I come across and come into Santa. So they weren't graduates, but they had that extra, you know, they've been around a bit and done other things. And again, I think that's as we go forward, I think that we'll see a lot more of that.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

You know, and people perhaps want to try, you know, obviously there's the age bit, but people might want to try a second a second career in the military rather than you know, traditionally it's the first career, isn't it? But yeah, I don't know, things are changing.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Yeah, agreed.

First Command And Northern Ireland

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Great. So let's move on to probably when and a bit a bit that I'm particularly fascinated by is this early command experience because it's a big old jump from being an officer cadet to a second lieutenant. So take me back to obviously you were successful in joining the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. Um so now you're a platoon commander. What were you up to? What kind of happened, and what were some of those big learnings that you had at the start?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

What we were up to, so I joined the battalion in Catarick, they were a light roll infantry battalion. When I say light roll, we had a we had uh had a vehicle called Saxon.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Do you remember Saxon? You were too young. But Saxon was a wheeled, wheeled sort of uh uh personnel carrier. Um so we had that. Uh we did you know, we were we were basically uh the whole war was still going. So our primary role was to reinforce British Army with the Rhine. And we did, you know, I remember we did a big exercise just after I arrived, where we all went across to Germany and and did a you know four four-week exercise where we reinforced what was going on over there. Uh uh so that um and then I went to quite quickly went out to Northern Ireland. That was that was going on at the time. I I I didn't go with the regiment, I went with the uh what was then the uh Ulster Defence Regiment. Oh really? They needed platoon commanders at the time for a number of reasons. So I went out there and did a tour in Belfast with them. Really?

SPEAKER_01 13:44

So and that was that with your own soldiers or that was their soldiers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

So how did you find that? Uh brilliant. I mean I I really enjoyed it. They were a fantastic bunch. Um, you know, and and um, you know, they the Ulster Defence Regiments, you know, they lived, they lived there. You know, they were they were regulars, but they were part of the part of the uh uh population. It was incredible that they they they would go home at night and uh you know live in amongst the uh population of where they were during the day they were they were operating. It was in it was incredible. Obviously we we lived in in the in the uh in the mess. No, I found that amazing, but in terms of in terms of challenge as a young officer, uh Yeah, I just I just remember it's that it's that uh fear's the wrong word, it's that trepidation of meeting your platoon for the first time. I remember uh that. You know, what what are these what are these strange people that I'm gonna meet called soldiers? Because you hadn't I mean I'd I'd experienced it a bit in the reserves, but you know, for for those coming straight from Sandhurst, you didn't get that, you didn't really understand what you were going to what you're going to meet. You knew you were going to be in charge of them. You knew you were probably gonna make the least experience in the in the platoon of 30 or whatever, however many there were. Um But you knew you were in charge. And it was quite that was quite daunting, wasn't it? You know, that first that first uh that first meeting. Um so I remember that I remember that. Um Yeah, that enormous Oh by the way, I think now Sandhurst, you do meet soldiers at Sandhurst, because I think they do uh a program at the end where you do get to meet soldiers and experience conducting interviews and all that sort of thing. So I think they worked that out. But I also I also remember that uh you know, that relationship with the opportunity sergeant, getting that right. Um understanding that whilst you know you uh you were the boss, you had to listen to what he was saying and what they were saying because they had eight years more experience than you, and it was that if you had a good one and I did have a good one, um you know, he he would you know teach you, coach you, advise you, mentor you. Um until you're able to stand on your own two feet. And I think that's hugely important as a young officer that you you listen and and uh react and and don't think you know it all because you don't you know it's it's a learning process. And the the final thing is that it's just that responsibility, isn't it? You're responsible for the 30 young lives or uh and I think particularly in the um you know, Northern Ireland and then we went to the Gulf quite quite soon after. You the enormity of the fact that you are responsible for people's lives, uh and the enormity of that decisions we make you know will affect people's lives. It's quite daunting, isn't it? At a relatively young age. Yeah. We're not we're not particularly old when we get this amazing opportunity to lead. Um and with that comes that responsibility. Yeah, not many not many other professions where you get that amount of responsibility so young.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah, definitely. I I remember uh turning up to to brief 10 platoon that I was the new boss, and just a few things stand out is the fact that they're all like really looking at you, waiting to hear what you're gonna say, and then you sort of cast your eye over a few of them, and there's a few there, and definitely my experience that had you know opheric experience on their belt, and you could tell, you know, self-assured people that had been there and done it, and then on the other hand, 17-year-olds who were like, Oh my word, uh, there's there's a lot going on. I also remember being on the coach deploying for my first exercise uh as a platoon commander, and I this might have been six months into my time at battalion. I'd done a couple of deployments, but not an actual tactical exercise, and then just suddenly getting really nervous and just thinking, what if they're all amazing? And I'm just so bad. Um, luckily that wasn't the case, but yeah, there's there's all sorts where you just gotta trust that your training is has got you there. I remember doing the soldier interviews at Sandhurst as well. It's probably one of the things I remember really fondly because, and actually, I think we had the Gurkha attachment that would be attached to us on exercise in the season. It's the tank company, yeah. The tank company, which was really good. Just like really keen soldiers all over it. That but that was a cool experience, um, for sure. And you mentioned there quite a lot of operational experience as a platoon commander as well. So Northern Ireland uh sounds really rewarding, but also quite interesting to hear that they weren't your soldiers at the time, that the ones that you trained with, they're the new soldiers. But the first Gulf War, that was your that was your platoon, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah, but a recce platoon, right? I was a sport platoon by then. Um so it was a it was a reconnaissance platoon, 24 of them, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Okay, and uh anything that you want to share because a recce platoon, right, is is the more senior soldiers, um, pretty capable uh individuals. How does that differ going on tour with a a platoon which is regarded as the best platoon in an infantry battalion?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Uh well we'd been together for quite a while before we went out, so we want to say about quite a while, we've been together about a year, maybe a bit less. So

Responsibility Delegation And Decisions

SPEAKER_00 18:45

we'd we'd trained together in Germany, and in those days we spent quite a lot of time on exercise, you know, there's uh Soltau and Solaga and all those sort of places that are still going out, I think. But but um you know we spent a lot of time out on the ground, so we were we were quite tight-knit, quite a tight-knit team. And um yeah, Reiki Platoon is is uh is a good role, so it's an exciting role, so we were we were pretty confident in our in our ability. But even then, you know, we hadn't we hadn't been on operations together, um and we hadn't we hadn't certainly been on operations as a reconnaissance platoon together. So it was it was um uh challenging, exciting, daunting, all of those things. But you know, we were together and we we um we had a lot of time to to to think about it. We had a lot of time in in theatre to prepare a couple of months before we actually uh went into operations to to to be get as good as we possibly could be. So by the time we went, we were pretty confident, all of us were pretty confident, uh and I was pretty confident that we'd be okay. And how was the tour? Short and sharp, so it was uh 35 years ago this year actually, so we just had a we'd had a had a uh uh a remembrance. So it was it was short and sharp. We had a a big build-up. Um you know, a lot of a lot of stuff going on around us in terms of would we, wouldn't we, um attack or go for it, and then eventually after a long air campaign, we went in and it was a hundred hours famously, you know, three days of fighting, and then that was it. So it was short and short, very intense. Didn't get much sleep in three days. Uh but um you know we um yeah, it was exciting, awesome, challenging. And then what happened after Wrecky?

SPEAKER_01 20:34

So was that your second job? That was my second job, yeah. Okay, cool. So I think commander and then recapitulate. Yeah, I think battalions do this differently because for us in one Royal Anglian, whether that is the case now, I think it is. That was a support weapons was a third job. Right. So you'd always go and do like I went to Cataric or something else before.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Oh yeah, sorry, no, I don't sorry, I beg your pardon, yeah. I'd been a platoon commander at depot. Oh, okay, cool. Depot for us in those days was uh well the same as for for the Royal Anglians. We were at Basingpool. Yeah. So I did about eight months, nine months at uh at the depot. So platoon commander, rival platoon commander, then I went to depot, then I did a detachment to the EDR. Oh yeah. And I came back and recorded. Amazing. How was your experience at depot? Enjoy it? Yeah, I did, yeah, it was great fun. It w again it wasn't very long because I got short toward to go and do this other thing, but um yeah, I enjoyed I enjoyed it. And it was uh, you know, it was a great bunch of people there, it got a great bunch of officers, you know, in the in the mess. It was good, good fun mess life. Yeah, but also rewarding because you were, you know, you were taking people, you know, taking platoons through their basic training, so you actually saw the fruits of your labour.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah, I guess you've seen it for the officer side as well. I only saw it on the soldier side, but it's it's more challenging than you think initially, taking someone as a civilian to turning them into a soldier. Yeah, and it's not so much the tactical element, it's more just that first month. Yeah. Yeah. Just like a capture. Yeah, just stick with it, guys. Yeah, it's it's not that bad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

It's a big change, isn't it? It's a big change. It's a big change for anybody. uh because you know we have a different different way of life, different way of living. And you know, I can't help but think increasingly where the the the the the the gap between what we do and what happens in civilian world is sometimes getting yeah bigger. So that shocker capture's probably more evident than it ever was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah definitely if if uh people are a bit I mean it's still hard if you're a young person straight from school but I think it's also hard if you've been a civilian yeah and had your own career or whatever and then joined because you're giving up a lot more freedoms. If you're straight from school you're kind of used to doing stuff that you might not want to do. And maybe just to finish off on the early command bit I've got I've got a note here. What do you think a young officer underestimates about about leading soldiers?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

How much they can surprise you I would say on the good side how much if you if you lead them properly how much they will dig out for you and um produce the answers that you never expected and do amazing things you know particularly particularly on operations you know the the the one you never thought would ever do anything is suddenly the one that's you know leading the child whatever it may be they will surprise you and on the bad side they'll surprise you that you know they've done what you know and and you know I've had so many times where you just get so disappointed that that you know the guy who you thought was going to be the next junior NCO or was going to be you know you really just goes off the rails or does something silly or you know fails a drug test or and you think oh really yeah so I think for any young officer don't underestimate how they can surprise you both good and bad.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah first thing there's a lot of memories going back through my head right definitely on the good side I think um I think I I maybe took a while to I think most people do um but took a while to get to grips with what effective delegation actually looked like um and instead of it's you know not being slopey shouldered and you do this for me it's actually giving them the support that they need. But I remember a few times specifically where some junior NCOs had just done something like incredible with a lesson that they were teaching or something with their section. And I was like oh my God like these people are super impressive.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

And the flip side yeah definitely have been in yeah got those phone calls a few times what also I think that's that's you make a really good point actually about the the you know mission command as we call it empowerment and um yeah we I think we're pretty good at that particularly on operations we're pretty good at it but I think for for a young officer where you can empower all you like and you can delegate all you like and you can you know you can be in as inclusive as you like in your leadership style but there will always come a time when they're gonna look at you for a decision. You know it doesn't matter how old you are how how long you've been in or what experience because you've got that on your chest they're gonna look to you for a decision and you know that's a that's sometimes a big ask isn't it yeah definitely but it's you know the that accountability responsibility ultimately rests with with you as a team commander.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

And I've definitely seen more frustration I mean I include myself in this for anyone in the chain of command but when there isn't a decision rather than it necessarily being a decision that you disagree with it's more just like come on let's get on with it whatever course of action we're going with here for whatever you know whether it's tactical or or in camp just kind of want that decision to to get the you know the wheels moving and

How Leadership Changes With Rank

SPEAKER_01 25:35

whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Well do you say it sounds right or wrong to make a decision.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Yeah yeah yeah yeah my dad used to tell me indecision is the worst decision I think there's a lot of truth in that yeah um not that he was military but uh okay cool and then Paul this is particularly impressive is um the fact that your your leadership at every rank in terms of command is really there to see so platoon commander OC Reiki Company commander uh commanding officer of the first of the first battalion yeah uh brigade commander and then ending up as the the general officer commanding as well um when you were at Sandhurst right so I guess my question is is over that period how does your leadership evolve during that time and yeah I appreciate that's a pretty big question but more do some of the key things that you think I really started to get better at this and I maybe it was at this rank that I really understood this part of leadership or how do you see it?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Well the first thing is that we are I think we are blessed in the army well in the military I suppose is that we have the the time to be developed as leaders by that I mean you know we in the army we go to Sanders and we get that foundate amazing foundation of leadership you know we get taught how to be leaders but then that's not that's not it you know we don't we don't then assume that that's enough you know at every at every level you know you'd you'd have done JoTec and and um whatever AJD is called now and and staff college ICSC and you know at every at every level we get this in inject of of leadership development that prepares us for the next rank or the next position or the next role or the next operation. And that's that's a really powerful thing isn't it? I mean because not a lot of organisations do that. Quite a lot of organisations you know assume assume leadership. If you're good at your skill to create it you'll just get it. So I think I think that's really good and I and I and I think the system is very good at allowing you time to think about what what's how does my leadership need to change because I'm moving to this next next role or this next position. So for example for example you know before you become a commanding officer you go and do the commanding officer's designate course um you know and whatever you think of it it's time to think you've got two weeks or however long it is to to to to think about talk to your mates and think about what's this enormous thing that's coming to to me now what does it mean in terms of my leadership. So I think the army does does a great job at that in terms of what you learn as you get more senior of course that personal nature of leadership gets harder. As you're a platoon commander you know everybody in your platoon really well. Company commander you know everybody in your platoon not as well you still know them. Uh battalion commander you probably know the really good ones and the really bad ones you know and then you but by the time you get to be brigade commander or or or beyond it's then you're you are much more up and out you're far more involved in in the in the strategic direction of the organisation and therefore it's quite difficult to get that situational awareness that leaders need in terms of the people you've got to work hard at it um and you know it's that it's that where can I best affect what's going on where can I best influence what's going on and that's not always with your people as it is when you're more junior. So I think it's just understanding that uh that is going to be a constant source of frustration irritation as you get more senior but you've got to find a way around it. How did you how do you manage to keep your finger on the pulse as a brigade commander? Uh I think it's it's about it's about trying to free yourself up from from the office. That sounds weird but I I had a certain when I was CO, you know I relied heavily on my regimental sergeant major to come and grab me and say come on let's go and visit the training let's go and go go to lunch and have a chat to the blokes because it's too easy to get wrapped up behind the computer all you know because there's a lot going on and we get that and there's more and more piled on COs all every every year you know there's more responsibility you've got to do more of this and more of that same same for brigade commanders but I think it's having having somebody or your own personal drive that says let's go and let's go and talk to them let's go and visit them because there's the thermometer is you talking to them isn't it you can't you can rely on sit reps and you know people writing to you and telling you what's going on but unless you actually talk to them and experience what they're going through it's quite difficult to get that situational awareness that you need.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah even even as a platoon commander or when I worked in the headquarters battalion headquarters for a bit there was definitely a few people that you would go to first because you knew they were going to tell you the truth no matter if it was what you wanted to hear or not. And then perhaps maybe some others that would play the party line and you're like no no I'm here to get the truth and you go to those individuals.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Hopefully I was one of those individuals that people would come to but yeah I usually quite outspoken I think you never and you know there'll be people throwing throwing things at the radio now saying you know I never saw him or and it is difficult because there's an awful lot of you know the higher you get there's an awful lot of pull on your time um and it's just a matter of prioritising what's important uh and that's that's really difficult. It's no easy and I didn't get it right I'm

Iraq Planning Rock Drills Mission Command

SPEAKER_00 30:55

far from it but that's that's the art of senior leadership I suppose it's getting that balance right isn't it I definitely remember seeing you around Sandhurst a lot walking around so you must have been doing it.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

And out of those roles particularly those ones where you're where you're in command are there any that you you really remember fondly and you go that was that was maybe a favourite or you know any of those particularly Company Commander really without a shadow of a doubt.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Oh really yeah I was OCY company first fuse of years and we uh went to Iraq in 2003 and it was one of those times where it was just a really good team. I mean it wasn't I didn't they they'd been developed by other people so I just took it over I was very lucky to take it over but they were they were just a really good team and um and we had a we had a challenging you know tour but it's one of those things you know you know when you when you it doesn't matter how challenges you've got that confidence that you've got such a good great team and I I knew them pretty well um yeah it was good enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

I heard on a another podcast you did about a particular action where you tried to get a prisoner. Yeah. Was that in that tour? Yeah when you're a company commander yeah you spoke really well about um I'm just thinking for people that are interested in how the military conducts planning and stuff not that we're giving any of the secrets but you talked really well about how you bought in your headquarters to kind of rock drill and play out what could happen and make sure the rehearsals were done and whatnot. Do you just want to share a little bit about how that process worked before maybe you stepped off if if if you can recall any of that.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Yeah well we had we'd had so this was a um it was a time when we were on in our on our it was on the outskirts of Basra and we were um waiting to assault into Basra and we were sort of preparing or at a at a brigade level they were preparing the the the the uh the ground for the fight and we were getting a lot of uh rockets and mortars coming from the outskirts of the of the town and it was decided that uh we would go to a fighting patrol and try and um go after some of these some of these uh mortar positions in a little place called al Hartha just on the outskirts of the of the city so we were tasked my company was in reserve at the time so we were tasked with uh putting together a fighting patrol to go and do that so we had we had about 24 hours 48 hours to prepare which is a luxury yeah so we were able to do you know a full a full planning process so we took advantage of it and we we planned it uh carefully uh we we wargamed it rock drilled it all the stuff that you get taught but yeah and the rock drill was everybody all all the members of the fighting patrol going through what we would do on the objective the normal normal stuff but you know what what happens if this happens you know what are we gonna do if this happens and and um the the so what was on the objective on the night it didn't go to plan obviously it never does uh and um you know I remember I remember when it all when when when we were all in the sort of you know what I call the chaos box where everything's going wrong and you know things just everything's kicking off ultimately it came down to a Lance Corporal of a team of four mission success was down to Lance Corporal Hayton uh of seven platoon who you know I had no control platoon commander probably had no control it was down to him uh and that's that's the beauty of planning that's the beauty of of uh having the time to plan making sure everybody understands what happens if this goes wrong because that's the essence of mission command isn't it you know he he was at the point where the information was at therefore he had to make the decision to go into that house or not to get the to get the the guy we were after and mission success was down to him wow I definitely as you're saying that you know I never did a kinetic tour but I I do remember pulling in my section commanders at one point on exercise and we'd done a platoon attack that had gone pretty badly and afterwards and I I kind of just said and I I do actually you know it'd be keen to get your your perspective on this I sort of said to them look you know I can make the decisions and give the orders and whatnot but really the momentum comes down to you guys and and whether this is successful rests more on you than it does me when we're actually moving and at that particular point I felt that they it was last day of exercise we were a bit lethargic we were quite slow and basically the whole team got killed on exercise um me being first which was pretty bad.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

But then we reset it and we were like let's let's go get and it was completely different because they were fired up and I thought that's not really me doing anything different this time that's you three just taking the ball by the horns and really charging and it in having that classic aggression. I don't know if that's kind of how you reflect on some of those big occasions but it's really interesting that Lance Corporal kind of you know still stands out as the the pivotal moment there for you.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

I mean they will they will obviously I mean exercise is one thing but when it's a really part obviously so there's there's that momentum as well but you made a really good point there about you know well done you for going through an after action review. Yeah what what went wrong what went right how could we do this better uh and then well let's have let's do it again and see if we can make it better. That's a great that's a great uh you know that's that's that's that's that's a high performing team isn't it that's what that's what they do. So um you know I think that learning that learning process and I think we're pretty good at that I think we're in in the in the army we're pretty good at you know learning learning from our mistakes learning from our successes you know what what did go well what what we do again next time but most importantly you know how can we make that a bit better and I think being open to that that learning mindset hugely important particularly particularly when you know the chips are down.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Yeah yeah really interesting and then um just to to note uh because I've I've spoken about this in a previous video about when you're on a the command trajectory as it were um which you obviously were when did you know you were sort of performing at that kind of level you know was it senior captain or a captain when you thought actually I've got a good chance here was it planned to always become a a general um how did you sort of navigate that process I think it's actually quite hard for for many officers out there.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Yeah um well I never I never thought I'd be a general really generally even to even when they said I was going to be um I think I I really I really wanted to be a CEO I really I thought of commanding your battalion you know from not from a really early age I don't I don't remember thinking when I joined as a platoon commander or crikey I want to be a company commander or I want to be a I was just more more focused on being a platoon commander but um you know later on later on when you started going to staff colleges and you started doing exams and that it was the end the end point was always to be a to be a CO I think particularly in for me to command regiment would be great. So I suppose that was a that was a driver but um I had a great I had a great uh uh mentor um I I wouldn't say his name but I had a great mentor who when I when I took over as uh as CO he he wrote me a line he said very congratulations on being a CEO he said uh just just uh you know don't think about what next don't think about you know where you go from here just focus absolutely on enjoying it and putting every ounce of your energy into being a into being a CEO and the rest will take care of itself and I think that's not a bad that's not a bad mantra at any level is it if you go into a position even you're in platoon commander if you just do your best and try really hard to be the best you possibly can be to leave that platoon or that company in a better state than when you picked it up the rest will take care of itself.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah I I think I've seen that in uh when leaving the army and we'll come on to sort of the civilian leadership aspect shortly but I definitely I joined a startup and the attraction for the startup culture is it's cool, you know, it's it's it's pretty um energetic it's youthful but then as you achieve investment and get funding rounds it quickly becomes a lot more serious. And there were some people that had joined the company that wanted to promote which is great but were focused really on how they or being the level up rather than doing their job and it was a few awkward conversations to go, no, we can't promote because you're not performing now. You know we need to sort of re-educate and you know might have left the business or or whatnot. But I definitely yeah that rings true in in all walks of life is focus on the here and now and absolutely and the rest will kind of follow.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

And you you answered that really interestingly about what becomes more challenging and it's the the net the nature

Running Sandhurst And Writing Doctrine

SPEAKER_00 40:00

of being further removed from the people that I guess you're leading you're obviously leading the others but um that element so when did you find out you were going to become commandant I was at uh I was doing a job at the staff college I was the director of the army divisions looking after ICSC L and I've been there for about a year coming out for a year and I got the call from CGS at the time to say I want you to be commanded Sandhurst amazing it was yeah great and then um so let's just maybe go into to that role what's it like going back to Sandhurst as is is the boss well I I didn't go back I I desperately wanted to be an instructor at Sandhurst. Yeah me too desperately wanted to be because that's where all the cool kids went uh I obviously wasn't cool enough because I didn't go uh so I hadn't been back I literally hadn't been I hadn't I mean I've been back obviously but I hadn't I hadn't served there since I was a cadet so to go back as commandant was a huge privilege and you know to finish finish where you started it's always good isn't it so it was great I I mean you know again responsibility and all that sort of thing with with the new role but but um it just felt for I think for all of us it just sort of feels comfy going back to Sanders doesn't it yeah I don't think it doesn't matter how long you've been there for or whatever you go back there and it's like this sort of blanket goes around you and it's sort of yeah back wear so I think it's the same same for me. I was just delighted to be part of it again.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah I went back um and was fortunate enough to be invited to speak to the intermediate term quite recently and it was the first time I'd been back since I think I maybe straight after I finished the Plato Commander's battle course I went and did the arms and services display but it was so I've only been out of there three months so it didn't feel much but this was the first time you know a decade basically and I got out of the car and I was like why aren't I marching oh yeah it's because no one's shouting at me I'm okay I'm okay I'll be all right um okay cool and then what does what does it actually involve because as a cadet sort of being there uh you know obviously you know who the commandant is you give the introductory brief and and whatnot but what does the job actually involve because it's much bigger than just Sandhurst right uh it was so so the um so I was there I was there for two tours so I did I did a back to back so I was there for five years the first the first couple of years was was commandant uh of the Sandhurst group and the group then had had sort of grown to be so you're responsible for the OTCs you're responsible for the uh what was going on at Warminster with the with the junior officer training um director leadership so the centre for army leadership was coming into being then so that was that was the Sandhurst group so you you were based at Sandhurst and and Sandhurst was the then it changed and I was made GOC army recruiting initial training command which included Sandhurst but responsible for all soldier training and and recruiting for the army so um you know that that was that was I'll be honest with you most of my time was spent recruiting because it was it was an issue at the time and therefore that was where most of my time was spent so I didn't spend as much time as I would like to have done at Sanders but in answer to your question what does the commandant do um you know he's he's responsible for I guess but it's about getting the balance right because Sanders is is this amazing jewel in our crown isn't it um and it's the balance of you've got to you've got to you've got to make sure that what goes on there is relevant to what they're gonna go and do.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

So the training the development the way you teach them has got to develop but at the same time you've got to make sure you retain what makes Sandhurst and sometimes that was a that was a challenge because there's constant you know requirements to save money and do things differently and you know and you had to as commandant you are the ultimately the custodian of what makes soundhurst Fantastic. And I, you know, put my hand up. I didn't didn't get it right all the time. And Sanders' reputation suffered under my watch because of a couple of things that happened which I won't go into. But probably didn't do as well as I should. But that doesn't take away from the fact that that's what the common art was supposed to do. Interesting. And also, and also there's quite a big job in terms of um the international piece because Sandhur is a most amazing, it's got the most amazing reputation around the world for quite rightly for doing what we do. And everybody wants a piece of Sandhurst and they you know they expect to see Commandant Sandhurst going to their parades and representing our country and that sort of thing. So there's quite a there's quite a big job on that side as well. So yeah, and then you've got the other things around of making sure you know the uh the leadership bits or so it's quite it's quite a big job. Well it is a great big job. Yeah, definitely. As the current one will probably tell you if you sitting here now.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully soon, hopefully soon. I'm working on it. Um, yeah, and I I you know it it really does does open, you know, for anyone that goes their eyes as a cadet as an instructor, whatever, it does open your eyes to um a whole different way of life, standards, etc. I mean, I was quite fortunate enough to be in the in the company with the princes. Uh so you know, a few of them really good friends now, which is just bizarre to say, lad from Plymouth, uh suddenly, suddenly having those sort of contacts and actually just realizing that everyone's a person, and you know, people have actually there was one particular instance where I think uh someone, I won't say who, but someone deployed on exercise late. And I remember my colour sergeant overheard me going, Why does he get to deploy late? He's like, Well, he's been in NATO meetings all week, so I think that's why I was like fairwise. And you mentioned there about the Centre for Army Leadership, and that started under your tenure, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:50

I think that came no over my my uh uh predecessor. It was started under him. I took it over, and then we started to develop the doctrine, developed how the centre for army leadership went on.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Why was that you think so important to get right? Maybe you know, the army leadership doctrine, uh the development of junior leaders and and leaders being not just officers but soldiers as well, and then you know, establishing and and progressing the centre of army leadership.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Well, it goes back to what I said right at the beginning, though we uh you know, when you asked me about the journey, um, we do have a really good journey. We have a good leadership journey. Um you know, I I again people will throw throw rocks at the uh at the uh whenever they're watching it on. But I think we're pretty good at what we do. Yeah, you know, I I rarely I mean I know I know there's been some high high uh profile you know issues with army leaders. Of course there are, but but m nine times out of ten they do a fantastic job and do some amazing things. So I don't think we do we do do it too badly. But we never we never wrote it down. And we never really, you know, and that's why that's why we decided we need to we need to write this down and and get it into some sort of doctrine that that we can test and adjust. I mean it it's it's not it's a live document. I mean people are uh updating it all the time, but at least it's there as a framework to make sure that it's we're all doing the same thing. You know, what is army leadership? Well this is it. Yeah, it doesn't matter whether you're a Lance Corporal or a three-star, you know, these these are the basics, these are the these are the framework, these are the these are the values, these are these are how we operate. So I think it was it was really important to write it down.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Yeah, and I think it's definitely something that you can dip into no matter when you are in your career. Obviously, it's sandhurst, it's quite in your face, and it and it's a lot to take in amongst everything else you're trying to learn. And then there's you know, it might just be a couple of years later, whether it's on a course or whether it's just on that shelf and you dust it off to have a quick look back in, or it's in a brief that you attend, or even now, I'll be honest with you, I've reflected on it a lot since leaving the military and use it as a bit of a handrail to go, okay, what sort of decisions, how would I come up with this and what sort of processes? Particularly when I talk about my experience in tech, is we did go through a period of trying to professionalize because we received investment and things got a lot more serious. And it was suddenly realizing that amongst those people, I knew nothing about tech, but I did have some leadership experience to bring to the party that at that time in the company, maybe I wouldn't say it lacked across the board, but I was one of the sort of senior leaders, if you like, without actually being in a senior leadership position. So it was trying to navigate okay, how am I influencing people, how am I impacting, how are we trying to educate people on how to make these decisions rather than what the decision is, that's not me, but actually I can contribute to how we might come up with the solution here, which was particularly interesting. I reflect a lot on that doctrine actually during that period.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

And I think also the center, the centre was uh, I mean it's gone, it's gone on to do fantastic things, but I think it was about establishing that hub for the professional development of leadership, but also a hub that can reach out to other walks of life and learn from them. You know, we had been quite insular in our leadership, I think. Um, you know, and I think the what the Central Army Leadership has gone on to do brilliantly is you know, what what do others do about leadership? How can we learn from them? What can they learn from us? You know, you look at the popularity now of the annual um leadership forums they have. I mean, incredible speakers that could say that because it's a it's a place to be seen now because it's it's seen as a really exciting developmental opportunity uh on the leadership side. So yeah, I think I think it was absolutely the right move. Um, and it's gone from strength to strength. And why wouldn't we we'd be proud of how we lead? Yeah, and the podcast to reference. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, all of that, and the the academics in there, you know, the professional study of it, um, some of the stuff that's coming out from leaders at all ranks, you know, some of the some of the insights that are coming out from from um across all ranks. I mean, incredible.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Yeah. I can't remember who was uh the guest on this particular podcast. There's a lot of them out there now. Yeah. Um, but I do remember one, and it's sort of reflected on your journey of the development of an officer. Well, just being in the military, you have those opportunities to develop. But also, and what makes sandhurst quite special is the opportunity to practice what you've been taught. And that happens throughout, whether it's on exercise or whether it's just the fact that you're a duty cadet or you know, you've been given the task to do something, but but you're just constantly learning about what it is and actually leading it sandhurst if you're not in the field, is pretty difficult at times because they're all your peers. Yeah. So you can't go for this direct approach because it's gonna be like, sit down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good point. Awesome. Well, and actually, doctrine

Stand Up Straight And Sandhurst Myths

SPEAKER_01 50:35

kind of brings us on to the one, the only stand-up straight. Yeah. Um, I guess for for anyone that's not read this, I would absolutely recommend it. This is a book that you did. You put this together by yourself, or was this a sort of joint effort from people at Sandhurst? Big joint effort. Yeah, I was lucky enough to get my name on it. So it was the the habit of excellence from I Hear Big Joint Effort. How did the book come about?

SPEAKER_00 50:58

We were approached by Penguin to write a book on on leadership. It was when it was when the centre was sort of taking off and there was lots of interest in in leadership and and Penguin approached and said, Can you write a book on leadership? They were interested in serve to lead, you know, the little red book. They were interested in that and they said, Well, you know, can you can you write something like that? And it's a bit I think that's like sort of dealing with Walty. So he said no. Uh and then we because we were we were all still serving, we we had to reach into the army and say, right, you know, do we want to write a book on leadership? And w the the time wasn't right then. We were still putting the doctrine together and that sort of thing. But what we were struggling with was you know, attracting people to Sandhurst, you know, recruiting and that sort of thing. So they said, Well, can you write a book on Sandhurst? Of course you can. But then Penguin got involved and said, Well, it's you know, how are we going to make it relevant to to to uh to the to the people who are gonna buy it? And then we came up with the idea of uh, you know, life skills, you know, what we learn at Sandhurst, how can it be applied to to uh other walks of life? And I think in terms of what did we what did we the army want to get out of it? I think there was a bit of dispelling the myths about Sandhurst, you know, who can go there because the perception out there, you know, if I if I was to go and find someone now and say Sandhurst, who goes there, they'll say, Oh, it's all about Tofts, isn't it? And you have to be into the right school and the right university and have the right amount of money. Of course it's not, but you know, that's that's one of the myths and then the other thing is what goes on there, you know, what do we do in 44 weeks and um to turn to turn you know people into leaders and all that sort of thing. So that's that's one of the reasons, and hopefully it does dispel some of those myths.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Yeah, well, I I read it uh forgive me, I didn't read it whilst I was serving, um, but I did read it uh last year actually. And what a trip down memory lane for starters. That was great, but but definitely around dispelling the myths. What I mean the the myth around the fact that it being a rich boys' club and and all that type of stuff comes from the fact that at one time in history it was absolutely yeah, but that really isn't, and that's my experience now, is that really isn't the case. And I I think I have a lot of questions from saying, I'm not quite sure I'm that type of person. I sort of challenge them to be like, what is that type of person? Because you could get five of us in here now and we'd all be quite different, as much as you think I'll be also the same, and sometimes we are uh actually, you know, loads of different sort of vocational um experience or whatever that might be. So, what was some of the other myths that you wanted to sort of dispel in that book? And I guess how you came up with the life lessons?

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Why do we all wear chinos and check shirts when we leave? I mean, something happens to us, isn't it? Well, I think it was I think I and I'm not sure if this comes out in the book, but certainly in the in the in the stuff we did around the book when we did the launches and we went off and we we did quite a lot of you know, we went on to BBC, we went on to uh Chris Evans radio show, we did a lot of a lot of uh promotional stuff, and we were quite that's what that was one of the sort of things we wanted to get across. It doesn't matter where you come from, doesn't matter you know what sex you are, it doesn't matter where you lived, uh if you've got the potential, you can come to Soundturst. That's where we want that's what we wanted to get across in terms of who can come. You know, it's all about it's all about going to AOSB. Uh and provided you've got the the qualifications, and there's there is there is qualifications obviously to get to AOS B then we don't care as long as you've got that potential and we'll find it and then we'll develop it when you come come to Soundtest. So just give it a go. That was the first one. And then secondly, it was there's a sort of perception that you've got to be a a sort of superhuman to go to go there. And uh we wanted to say, look, uh trust the process. Yeah, you know, yeah, you've got to be you've got to be fit, but you don't have to be special forces fit. You know, we will we will develop you over 44 weeks, but trust the system, you know, and we'll uh give you what you need. And trust me, you won't leave there until you're able to stand in 33 in front of 32 men and women and say, follow me. So I think those are the two the two the two big ones. And we wanted to bring that to life by um and you asked you about how do we come up with the life skills. It was a joint effort. We sort of went went out to everybody and said, What do you remember about Sandhurst? What are the things what are the things that never leave you? You know, Sandhurst time. Yeah, we all want to be five minutes before because that's just the way we're tuned. Um you know, why do you fold your socks and and do your room inspections and bed blocks? Uh what you know, why why do you um why what what's what's condor moment? You know, why do you take a knee? All these things that we just remember, we just thought, wouldn't it be great if we turn those into you know why do you actually fold your socks? Yeah. You fold your socks so because it's about looking after yourself. Uh it's about making sure your kit's clean, your weapons clean, because you've got to go and inspect 30 other people to make sure that theirs is. So you've got to just it's a habit. Looking after yourself is a habit. You haven't got time to think about that when you're worrying about 30 other people, that sort of thing. So we try to try to bring it to life through that.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

Yeah, definitely. And and it comes across. And yeah, I don't know whether my socks really did smile back at me. I don't know whether I could quite get it quite right.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

No, that's the biggest question I get is from people who go, really, do you really fold your socks? What do you mean, smiley socks? And I'm trying to, I've lost the knack now, but I used to be able to show them what it means. But yeah, I'm sure you're sure you can do it. You don't continue this at home then. Do it. Does anyone I remember that was the biggest thing that we used to do? Because on uh Arning Board Sunday, you'd go and and um the cadets would all go off. Oh, you remember it. The cadets would all go off and be put into their jumpsuits and rifted around the place. Mums and dads would all come and have a cup of coffee with with us, the the DS. And uh you speak, particularly the mums would say, you know, oh, what's gonna happen to them? And I'll say, No, that'd be fine, you know, they'll talk this, that, and the other. And week 11, you come back and and um you'll come back and have have supper with them and you'll see see how they've got on. They always they always used to, and then then I'd we'd go to the chapel and I'd do a little talk, or the comment up and do a little talk about what to expect. And I'd I'd make a joke about well, at least they'll be able to tie to their rooms, or they'll be on they'll be able to iron their kit. And um, you see, the mums in week 11, they said when they come home, they don't iron their kit anymore. Yeah, they don't keep their rooms clean, they're just the same as they were. So there's some quite some disappointed mums out there.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Yeah, definitely. I remember my mum coming, and my my auntie actually, uh, and I think I'd shown them to my room, and I was I don't know what I was doing. I might have been boiling the kettle or something. And I turned around and my mum's got all the t-shirts off looking at it, and I was like, I took me all night to fold this stuff. Will you put it back? Um, but yeah, and and it's definitely true, and it's one of the things that I think is that shock of capture pieces, understanding uh that this isn't the way the real army works, but there's method to the madness and to trust the it is to trust the process. Something else you said about um sort of trying to instead of thinking about the big picture and everything that's coming up and you know, special forces, fitness and whatnot, just think about your first challenge is to get ready for AOSB. So if you're currently trying to get past the fitness, and I've got my own opinions on AOSB fitness standards at the moment, but um, on the whole, you get to Sandhurst, people are pretty fit. Uh, and you know, your your first challenge is to pass AOSB, then it's get ready for Sandhurst, then it's get ready for Brecon or whatever comes after. And I actually reflect on someone I was speaking with recently who um family have served in the special forces, and he felt a lot of pressure because the standard's so high. But I was like, but you're not there yet, don't worry about it. You can feel that special forces pressure later down the line if you go on you know selection. Whereas this is just passing the first part of the process. And I think Sandhest does a really good job of that of trying to, okay, this is a big problem, but how are we actually going to dissect what the first step is and what the second step is to solve this problem? Yeah. And I'll reflect on a few, uh, a few instances in that junior term of just being able to do well, maybe I didn't do it very well at the time, but learning about okay, cool. This is actually how you you do that, and whether it's cleaning your room, it's where to start, all these small things. Um, which one's there?

SPEAKER_00 59:13

No one's there to trip you up.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

Yeah, no one's there to fail you. Yeah, people want you to pass. Um, I think there's no secrets for AOS B or Sandhurst. You know, you could do a briefing for ASB and it tells you exactly what's required of you. Uh, and and there's there's heaps of places you can go and and find out what what the tests are. Same with Sandhurst, they do a pre pre-Santhurst course where you go and you get, you know, I think I think you still get issued your boots and get told what the first five weeks is like, and this is what you have to do in your in in terms of the fizz or whatever it may be. So nothing, nothing's a surprise, but people still over-train.

unknown 59:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

Yeah, and people arrive with injuries and and things like that. And I'd say to anybody out there, just I keep saying it, trust the process.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

Uh, and they will they will get you through.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

It's another shadow of a doubt. It's another big one is you know, what sort of distance should I be tabbing before I rock up? And I'm like, you don't need to be doing any tabbing, really. If you want to go for a walk with weight, that's fine, but there shouldn't be regular parts of your of your training because typically, obviously, there's physiological difference, height, weight, that type of stuff. But typically, if you can run well and and you're relatively strong, reasonably strong, you'll be able to tab. It's usually as simple as that, from what I've seen.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

And the science, the science there now, in terms of the you know, the the the the sort of sports science approach to fitness, I mean it's leaps and bounds ahead wherever it was when it was certainly when I went through. Um, and it'll only get better, you know. The what what the what the um physical training instructors now are incredibly capable in terms of understanding individual requirements and therefore developing individuals as they need to be developed, not not as a group, you know. And I don't think I don't think they're carrying that much weight until I mean I can't remember when long reach is, but it's something about week eight. Yeah, I think it is. When you think long reach is you know it can be up to 80ks over the Black Mountains carrying 20 kilograms, that's a bit of a lick. Yeah. But again, not many people fail it. Yeah. Uh and they haven't done much tabbing up till then. It's all about conditioning and making sure your body's capable. And if it is, it will you'll be able to do it. If you don't know about blisters, if you don't know about blisters, you will buy the end of that. You will buy the end of that. Then you'll learn to wear two pairs of socks.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

Wear two pairs of socks, yeah. Soap on the bottom of your feet or whatever it is. Thin pair of black socks, then you then your bridgedales, whatever they are. Um awesome. Uh and well, we're

Leaving The Army Civilian Leadership

SPEAKER_01 1:01:35

sort of coming to the to the natural end, and I guess um after serving a long career in the military, how did you find leaving? What was that experience like for you becoming a a civilian? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

Uh yeah I left into COVID 2020. Which was uh, I mean, it was a bit of a bit of a shame to end that way because it was was sort of mid mid-Covid, so it was a strange way to leave the army. But then in some ways it was quite good because it made me think about what do I want to do next. Because there's nothing going on. So I had a bit of time to think and uh and work out, and you know, I I enjoyed I enjoyed the leadership aspects of director leadership and the Santez piece, and you know, I enjoyed that, so I knew I knew I wanted to do something in there. So I elected for a sort of portfolio of of different things, but mainly based on leadership consultancy and development and a bit of coaching and and that sort of thing. So that's that's what I that's what I do now. Uh how did I find it? Uh yeah, there's things you miss. There's things you miss about. I mean, I did a full career, so uh different for you. Yeah. I miss the people, I miss the interaction with the uh you know, with the with the people was was different in Sirius Street. You haven't got that sort of wrap around you. Uh so I missed that. Finally, Mr. John really enjoyed my next chapter and it was a good time for me. It was good, it was my time, so yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

I remember in my uh CO's exit interview, he said to me, he was like, just you know, bear in mind it was it was half retention, but he could tell that my my my mind was made up, and he'd really tried hard to to keep me in in terms of putting me forward for Sandhurst, even though I was probably a bit too junior, really, to get there, and I got down to the last two, but some someone beat me. Um, so it was it was it was all done, and he's like, you know, you really like the community on camp, you know, you get on with everyone, and and just bear in mind that's you're not gonna have that. And at the time you're like, yeah, I know. But then actually about a year later, you're like, God, I missed the day where I could just walk out of the office and go for a brew with yeah one of 800 people.

unknown 1:03:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

Um, I really, yeah, that that element. And then I also think there was, I don't know how you might have found this, but there was a period, especially when I was in my that tech job of about 18 months in where I realized I was, you know, great people, but I was going to the office with the same people, the same office. I lived in the same flat, and I thought, surely I'm meant to be moving on sometimes. So I'm almost at my two-year part. I don't know if you've had any.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Yeah, I don't know if you've had anything like that because you've moved a lot, right? I've moved a lot, but I think the difference for me is I came to the end of my full time. There was nowhere else for me to go. So I don't, I didn't have that what if. Could I have gone and done something else? So uh slightly different for me. Do I get itchy feet? Not really. I think my wife does every two years because we used to move house every two years. I think she's still she quite like that. So I think she gets itchy feet. I don't, I'm I'm quite happy with my lot. Yeah, I'm still involved in my regimental piece. So I do I do go and you know, and last week we had the 35th anniversary of the golf, and we all got together again. And you, you know, as long as you've got that ability to reach back and talk to your mates and yeah, you know, keep that going, keep that fire going, it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

Yeah, I think that's really important actually. I I'll speak to some people that are leaving reasonably regularly. And I think there's a lot of bad press about how you know the veteran community isn't embraced by the army or whatever. And I think it's also on the end, yeah, there are definitely some cases where it could be a lot better. But I think in um in other cases, if you put the effort in yourself, and I felt that a lot over the past year or so in my regimen reaching out in particular individuals within it, God, it counts for a lot. It really does count for a lot, and you feel like uh okay, you might not be serving, but you still feel like you're adding a bit of value, um, uh, which is which is nice. So obviously you're doing quite a lot within the civilian landscape in terms of leadership. Has anything surprised you about civilian leadership? Is is there any differences that you you know, tangible, something noticeable?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

I think I think the big I think the big one is is the fact that and this is not this is not everybody, but quite a lot of organizations assume leadership. You know, they they just assume you're gonna get it. So you know, leadership is almost a bit of an afterthought. You get it if you're lucky. You know, and some organizations are good at providing leadership development, others will say it's a cost they don't need. Uh people don't see it as an investment. And therefore, people you know will get promoted through the organization based on their abilities to do whatever they do, and then suddenly they they come to a level of requirement, they're responsible for more than just their bit of stovepipe, and they struggle because they haven't been taught. It's not the fact they're not good.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

They just haven't been taught how to be leaders. And I find that quite strange. And then sometimes I go and talk to these people, talk to organisations, and it's as I say, it's a bit of an afterthought, which that doesn't ring true with us, does it? We see it as the basis of anything, of everything. So that surprised me a bit. And that's not everybody. Some are very good, but a majority are are not. I think also for us, team teams are everything. I don't think that's quite as big a thing in the civilian world. But then again, on the other side, you know, I've been some you mentioned entrepreneur, you know, some some startup organizations, incredibly uh innovative, yeah, agile, you know, decision making, you know, would put us to shame. Uh so you know, there's uh and also things like business, you know, business, business, business leadership, business management, you know, being able to run a business. I'm not sure we're as good as that as we should be. So there are things we can learn from them, uh, things I find surprising, definitely things they can learn from us.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

And then there is that just that enduring nature of leadership, which we all need. Doesn't matter when the army or on a sports pitch or running a startup, you all need that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

It's that it's that classic when you said they sort of, you know, worried about training, don't see it as investment. I remember someone saying to me, it's the it's the question of or it's the concern that if you train them and they leave, and it's like, but what if you don't train them and they stay? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and that is that is a big concern for a lot of companies out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:37

I I think this generation, and again, people are going to shoot me for this, but I think this generation, particularly of youngsters coming through, they want they want something, they want to be developed.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:47

They want it's not all about financial reward, they want to be developed in that organization to feel that they've got something out of it. Uh, and if that's promotion, great. If that's I'm just better for the next whatever I'm going to do next, that keeps them. Yeah. So I think I I personally think development, and and and again, you know, the army is blessed because we've got time to develop our leaders. You know, we can take them out and we can put them on courses. In the real world, in the civilian world, you can't you can't do that because you know, PL and all that sort of thing. So, but there are other ways of doing it.

Veteran Mental Health And Final Advice

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

Um, you know, there are other ways of developing leaders that doesn't require you going away on courses, but they've got to be developed.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

Yeah, definitely. And you're doing some some really cool work with um along the mental health side as well. Is there anything you want to mention on that thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:35

Well, well, I'm obviously working with uh so so I I um I was kind of my regiment, I was kind of refusal for five years before I left. And you know, I was I was shocked and dismayed by some of the some of the guys we were losing, you know, for killing themselves. Um and we try we tried we try really hard to look at it and it's it's it's very difficult. So when I left, I was thinking, gosh, I'd quite like to help out here if I could, and got involved with an organization called Leafyard who who uh put together a mental wellness app which uh rural language is using. I know that for a fact. There's about 12, 12, about 16 organizer uh associations using it now. And it was it was basically to to try and have something that could uh allow people to understand their own emotions, understand their own wellness, but more most importantly, understand when there's a need to reach out for help. And it works, but uh it's uh it's a constant fight, isn't it, to try and you know make sure people understand that there is people who can help. Uh, you don't have to suffer in silence. It's okay to not be okay. Just put your hand up and we'll try and help you.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:53

Yeah, definitely. It's um yeah, it's a it's a sad fact that I think anyone that's serving is is known of people that have taken their own lives. And unfortunately the list seems to to grow. Um, so yeah, absolutely anything in that space I think is I think is really good. And I also think it comes back to the to the leadership aspect of trying to know your people as best as possible to see if someone is struggling or to see if something's not quite right, and being open enough. I sort of, you know, the people that I work with now, I always say you need to have the relationships with your soldiers that if you've just bollocked someone for whatever they've done, they can, you know, the next minute come to you with the biggest problem in the world. If you have that relationship, you're doing it very, very right. Uh, and I think that's definitely on the mental health side. Yeah, I feel really strongly about the city.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:39

Also, where we leave, and you you mentioned, and your regiment is really good at at um you know having things like breakfasts or walk and talks or coffee clubs or and it it doesn't it doesn't mean you have to dress up in a suit and wear your medals and you know as a veteran, you can just go in your jeans and t-shirt and chat to your mates, yeah. And you know, sometimes just airing your problems, talking to someone else who may have the same problems is enough. Other times it might just trigger an alarm bell in somebody who says, Jimmy needs a bit of help. Let's let's let's it's it's just a whole and that's that's what we that's what we're really good at, isn't it? Is looking after one another. So the more we can do after army life to to pull that together, the better, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

Yeah, definitely. Paul, we're we're naturally wrapping up. Um it's been a genuine pleasure and privilege really to have you on. Thank you very much for to hear of everything you've experienced in your career. Um, and I'm sure we've barely scratched the surface, really. Uh, but it's been fascinating. I wonder if there's anything that you'd like to end with for anyone that is either on that trajectory right now at Sandhurst or is can about to start. Is there anything that you'd like to sort of end with? Uh a bit of advice.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:51

Well, we all have our different we all have our different journeys, don't we? But I I I look back on mine and and um it was just a fantastic adventure. And and I'm sure it's still a fantastic adventure. I I think you know, if you if you're that way inclined, uh why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you give it a go? And yes, sometimes the process is frustrating, sometimes the process is long, um, but it's worth it. So if you are you know starting your journey, you know, give it a go. I envy you, quite frankly. If I could do it again, I would. So yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:27

Fantastic. Well, thanks very much, guys. That is it for this episode. So um a lot to get into there. I really recommend Stand Up Straight. There's uh a long list if you go to the Centre of Army Leadership as well. They've released uh sort of some recommended books that you can actually get get into. And some of them assume a little bit of military knowledge, but others don't, and stand up straight is one that absolutely doesn't. So you can you can pick that up and read it from no matter where you are in the process. If this sort of content is useful, please do click like, subscribe, all that sort of stuff. And also if you've got questions, please feel free to pop them in the comments box below. I will do my very best to get back to you. That is it for this week's episode, and I'll see you next week with a brand new video in a bit.