A Regimental Sergeant Major’s Advice to Young Officers (From War to Sandhurst) | Steve Armon

Across 24 years in the infantry—from Northern Ireland to Iraq, and five tours in Afghanistan—Steve Armon learned to lead where it counts: under pressure, with people who need you to get it right. Steve walks us through the real journey from private to regimental sergeant major and the gritty lessons that stick. The result is a candid guide for young officers and NCOs who want to earn trust, fight well, and care for their teams without losing their edge.

We dive into the hardest promotion jump (private to lance corporal), why teaching at Harrogate and Brecon makes you sharper, and what the Belize jungle revealed about Platoon Commanders’ Division: fit, hungry officers matched with aggressive, experienced seniors can be dynamite when aligned. Steve explains how respect for officers grew as he watched them go from interview to running a fighting organisation in 18 months, and why “nobody wants to see an officer fail” became a mantra.

Operationally, we break down HERRICK 6: robust pre-deployment training, an unapologetic return-fire policy, and the art of spotting burnout before it breaks a good soldier. Steve’s RSM years focused on output, not optics—from an “ally parade” that surfaced field-ready kit choices to quiet conversations that fixed morale faster than any memo. We talk bayonets and close combat reality, the last 100 metres belonging to infantry leaders, and the power of explaining the why so soldiers own the plan, not just the orders.

Steve closes with six distilled leadership lessons: don’t let perfect kill good; study concepts together; never turn down a beer or a brew when someone needs to talk; lead without isolation; protect, celebrate, and support your people; and remember it’s not what you’ve done, it’s what you do next. If you’re an aspiring officer, a new platoon commander, or an NCO sharpening your craft, this conversation gives you clear, field-tested ways to lead with humility, aggression, and care.

Enjoyed the conversation? Subscribe, share with a mate, and leave a rating—then tell us which lesson you’ll put into practice first.

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:34 Steve Armon: 24 Years in the Infantry
• 5:00 Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan Tours
• 8:20 Sniper Path And Early Leadership
• 11:15 Instructing At Harrogate And Brecon
• 15:30 Hard Tours: TELIC And HERRICK
• 18:55 Lance Corporal: The Toughest Jump
• 22:10 Training Culture And NCO Development
• 26:40 Belize Jungle And PCD Insights
• 31:20 Respect For Officers: How It Grew
• 35:40 What Soldiers Expect From Platoon Commanders
• 40:30 Let NCOs Own The Last 100 Metres
• 45:10 Learning Barracks Realities Fast
• 50:00 Talk To Soldiers, Listen For Gems
• 55:20 HERRICK 6: Building A Fighting Platoon
• 1:00:10 Spotting Burnout And Training Hard
• 1:05:30 Robust Predeployment And Return Fire Policy
• 1:10:00 Caring Under Fire And In Barracks
• 1:14:20 Being the RSM

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

I had to do seniors to become a sergeant, and they were very, very, very aggressive. Mixed levels of fitness, mixed levels of understanding of the combat estimate, and then platoon commanders, all extremely fit, well-humoured, not very aggressive. These young officers in the space of 15 months gone from being Joe Civvy to them being in the jungle doing platoon attacks. It's not that I never had respect for officers, but the respect I did have grew very, very rapidly. If you think about a young officer's journey, they go from interview to taking over a fighting organisation within, let's say, 18 months. It's incredible. Nobody wants to see an officer fail.

SPEAKER_02: 0:32

Welcome back to the podcast. If you are listening, if you're watching on YouTube, welcome to another episode of the Lessons in Leadership series on the Army Bloke. Today, well, I get a lot of questions actually from people over this series so far that have said it's great to hear from former officers, and I've had some really experienced people on so far to share their experience and advice with the next generation, which is the whole point of this. But I also get the question of we want to hear from soldiers. And that's exactly what's going to happen today. You will be hard pressed to find someone with as much experience as my guest today, who has served at every rank as a soldier, with experience at every rank, but also in the heat of battle as well. So, Steve, it's great to have you on, mate. Really good to see you again. Thanks for taking the time to come and chat. Maybe start with a bit of an intro to yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19

Yeah, so my name's Steve Armour, and I served for 24 years in the British Army, in the infantry, uh, solely in the 1st Battalion, the Royal Angry Regiment, which is clearly where we met. Um, I joined in 1996 and left in 2020, uh, so 24 years. And I climbed the ranks from private to regimental sergeant major. So I left as a senior soldier with the organisation, which was a great way for me to finish. Um, and obviously throughout that journey, I was a section to IC, Section Commander, platoon sergeant, CQMS, RQMS, company sergeant major, and regimental sergeant major, with various tours and postings thrown in. I think of relevance to today is um I did two years in Northern Ireland doing a really interesting job out there. Uh I served in Iraq and then did five tours of Afghanistan, um, which was really sort of where I cut my teeth in the in the leadership sphere. And I did instructional posts at Harrogat and the infantry battle school at Brecon. So yeah. Awesome. In a nutshell.

SPEAKER_02: 2:10

Just a little bit of experience then to get into.

SPEAKER_00: 2:11

A lot of mess build.

SPEAKER_02: 2:13

Well, look, we probably won't get into absolutely every detail of that, but um, just before we do start, I think what's really important is just maybe the connection there. Steve's already mentioned that we sort of knew each other from battalion. What's really interesting, especially to any of you aspiring officers, is uh if you had told me almost a decade ago when I was going through Sandhurst that the RSM on the regimental selection board would be in a studio having a chat with me on a podcast, I would have thought, what's what on earth has happened there? So Steve was also the RSM on one of the potential officer visits that I went on. So at Sandhurst, you have two visits, and I visited the Royal Anglians, I visited the Vikings, which pretty much sold the battalion to me. And we went and met you. I don't know if you remember this, but we were in the sergeant's mess, uh, a cohort of us, which must have happened a lot during your time as RSM. I remember meeting you, but before we met you, we did uh we went and watched or saw some of the support weapons guys. And when I met a few of them, they were all like, Have you met the RSM yet? Have you met the RSM yet? So I think what's fair to say before I arrived is your reputation was clearly very, very strong amongst the soldiers. What I then realised when I arrived is that it was equally as strong amongst the officers. So yeah, I thought I should big you up now just in case people don't watch the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, we can sort that up. Um cool. Well, look, you you've mentioned your extensive experience there. I'd just like to touch on it, and I the reason I'd like to touch on it is because I think what's sometimes missed by young officers is just the amount of experience that the sergeant's mess has as a cohort. And, you know, or just across the battalion in general. So maybe just talk me through how you went from private to RSM and however you want to tackle that.

SPEAKER_00: 3:54

Yeah, I mean, I'll start by saying that two points really that um I'm very much a has been, you know, I've been out of the army for five years now, but you don't go through a career like I did without picking up a few things along the way. Um, so I hope people can take a few bits away. And it I'll try my hardest not to make it all infantry, but that's the world that I'm from, you know. Um, so I I hope it will it will resonate with with folk. But um, yeah, so I I've I had a fantastic career, uh, and it's all to do with the timeline of you know the years that I served. But so I joined in '96, uh, obviously as a private soldier, and a battalion were in Oakington, and we were a light role battalion. Um, and I joined C Company Templatoon as a young private. And interestingly, for the first sort of 18 months of my career, I had a colour sergeant and a sergeant running the platoon. Um, I don't know why, it was you know bigger than my pay scale, but ultimately um I was led by senior NCOs all the way up to sort of I think it was 1998, where we then run a selection card for Close Observation Patoon, which was effectively recce for Northern Ireland. Um it was a really, you know, really sort of specialist job of doing uh covert surveillance, working alongside UKSF and agencies out there, which was great. And a young Don Biddick was a platoon commander at the time. Um he's now up there. Um and he was my first exposure really to working with officers in the battalion, which was great. Uh, and then we deployed on a two-year uh residential tour of London area, Northern Ireland, and during that time I became a junior NCO, a large corporal, uh, and also badge as a sniper, which is one of the main reasons I joined the army. Um and on return from that, I uh we then geared up the events of 9-11 happened, and then we deployed on our one of the army's first ever tours of Afghanistan, which was Hopfinger One, yeah, out to Kabul, where we took over two para. Um, and then I really sort of started taking the army very seriously because actually I realised that when that incident happened in September of 2001, that there was definitely going to be a punch-up around the world, you know, and the British Army were gonna be involved in it. You know, there's no two ways about it. And I started to really sort of hone in on my personal levels of soldiering. Uh, and then came back from Kabul and went straight on to junior Brecken. And for me, that was a real turning point. I think that's four of the happiest months of my life, strangely. Um, four months down at the infantry battle school learning how to be a sex commander. Um and an interesting point is up to then I'd been in, I'd been a private and then in specialist platoons where I didn't really need to lead, you know, because everyone we were in very small teams and rank was almost obsolete, it was very classless, you know. Um, and then I did junior brecking and all the whole dynamic changed for me. Uh four months down there, you know, just Monday to Friday, earning your money as a sech commander, Saturday at the infantry school of dating, and then the infantry school of fighting, uh, the nightclub and Sarah Sidens. Um and I just absolutely fell in love with the army, you know, and fell in love with being in the infantry, being a being a sex commander, uh, left there with a really good grade, and then I went straight up to depot as an instructor at Harrogate, which was a fascinating time. Um, and I took real pride in that, you know, turning these young men and women, mainly men in the platoon that I was in, uh, giving them a chance at life, you know, a chance to sort of better themselves. Um, did two years up there, which was brilliant. Came back, and then we immediately went on PDT for Optelic. Um, went out there, was part of the strike company in Basra, which was really good. Um, did some fascinating work out there, um, dabbled a bit after that with SF selection, failed it twice, you know, not gonna beat around the bush. Um and then I attended a couple of different sniper courses, senior Brecon. I mean that must have been what 2005, 2006, um, and again just fell in love with it, you know, went back to my uh uh my sort of my safe place if you like. Had a really good course down there with good people, learnt loads, came back and then um picked up a platoon, uh 10 platoon, C company. Full circle, full circle, yeah, yeah. I wasn't carrying a GPMG this time. Um and then yeah, uh started getting ready for PDT pre-deployment training for Heritage 6, and then we went out there for six months, which I'm sure we'll sort of touch on later. Uh came back, and then this is a bit of an odd one, and it and it and looking back now, it makes complete sense. But when we come back from Herit 6, every platoon sergeant from a rifle company went to a recruiting office, and I remember you know being really taken back by this because to my mind that they're the guys that are on the way out of the army disgruntled or they've got administration problems that they need to sort. But the shrewd move by the CO at the time was to we knew exactly what we needed from soldiers then because we just had a very crunchy tour. So to sit in a careers office and get young men and women come through the door saying they wanted to do their bit, it made perfect sense. And as much as I hated the job at the time, uh looking back, I'm glad I did it, you know, especially with the way that things are now, you know, with Capital running the show and and all that sort of stuff, you know. We I gave some good people a good career, you know, and I really I'm quite fond of that sort of memory now, that year of my life. Um and then after that came back and uh sorry, went to the infantry battle school at Breckham, which I think was for me was two of the most rewarding years of my life, operations aside, you know, um, because at the time we were very much still campaigning in Afghanistan, so I was on senior division, so I was training corporals to become sergeants, um, and I took real pride in that, you know, and I I absolutely loved it. Um, and there was no bluffing them because they were at their peak, you know, they were every one of them had done the job that they signed up to do, and then part of their course is for you know them to come to us, we turn them around and get them back out the door as a platoon sergeant. They all knew their stuff, and I was learning as much as I was teaching, you know, and it was really good, really, really refreshing couple of years. Um, and then I went back to battalion as a CKMS, another Afghan tour. Um, was that here at 16, I think, which was really, really good, quite crunchy tour as well. Uh, and interestingly, then I was a CKMS for my company commander, a guy called Guy Foden, who I'll later go on to be his RSM, you know, which worked out really well. Um, and I'm sure we'll sort of touch on that later. Um, yeah, and then came back from that, picked up support company. So I was serious major for support company, which is your specialist weapons, reconnaissance, snipers, uh, and all of those hoods. Um, and that was again another two great years, and the main focus for that period of time was our uh Ascari Thunder in Kenya, which we know I we absolutely nailed as a battle group. Um and then I did a little bit of a training wing job prior to going to RKMS for another Afghan tour. Uh, I think that was Toral One. Uh, and then the good news I was picking up the battalion as RSM in Woolwich. Um so I was RSM from 2016 to 18. I didn't want to commission, um, so I had a year left after that. So then I was living in Brecon at the time, not Sarah Siddons, but um I uh I took the job up as Queen's Division Courses Scient Major, which was running our NCO and sniper wing down there for my last year, which is a great way to transition out.

SPEAKER_02: 11:08

I remember seeing you down there as yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:09

Yeah, it was really good. So my last day in the army, I did the Brecken Three Mile and then handed my ID card in at the end, and that was it. Yeah, tapped out. Um yeah, so a lot there, you know, and I've I've and that's without your sort of overseas exercises, you know, numerous around the world. I did 10 trips to Kenya somehow. Um various, you know, other courses in the middle, and you know, I had a thoroughly, thoroughly good time. Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02: 11:32

Yeah, that's I actually don't know where to start with with that. There's there's a lot there. Um maybe maybe actually we'll start with this this jump to Lance Corporal. You said that you joined to be a sniper, and then you had you you did, you sort of achieved that.

SPEAKER_01: 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:45

Um maybe we'll zone out and just go, like, what's the most difficult jump as a soldier when you're on that promotion ladder?

SPEAKER_00: 11:53

I probably think if you know, I mean my situation was very different, but I think from private to Lance Corporal is where you really find out who your mates are, you know. Um, and I suppose it's like going from being a platoon commander to adjutant, you know, all of a sudden you're the disciplinarian of the officers, you know, as an example. But I didn't really feel that, and like I said, my first real sort of crack at the whip of leadership was picking up corporal because um everything else we're in grown-up teams, very small teams in specialist platoons, you know, in recce and snipers. So um, but I think for a soldier it's certainly private to Lance Corporal, you know. Um, because let's be realistic, there's not many jobs in the army at the moment, certainly in an infantry battalion, where you might find that the rank that you're in, you might be doing the job of the next rank up, yeah. You know, so a lot of Lance Corporals are now doing such commander roles just due to people getting qualified and all the rest of it. And it's great for them as long as they're accepted by their peers, which for the most part they are, you know. I never really saw any um issues with that. You know, some people find it really hard, you know, but it it just takes a bit of time, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 12:55

Yeah, a few things. I I remember my first platoon attack at Battalion, my section commanders were three Lance Corporals, yeah. Um, whilst the other ones were on courses in doing whatnot. So, yeah, definitely a great opportunity for them and a big learning experience for me as well to figure out how it all works. Um, I also remember at one point, and keen to get your thoughts on this, whether there was just a thing in in C Company or Battalion at the time, but I remember having to pull the Lance Jackson at one point and just going, I'm hearing that you guys don't consider yourself leaders. And there was, I don't know if there's a bit of that sometimes, and I think there was a a point in C Company where I think everyone promoted and stayed in the company because they wanted to stay in it, which I think is testament to like the pride, but also a difficult one to manage. And I think at one point they decided that actually, if you were promoting, you're gonna promote and go into a different company, so you're not just surrounded by your friends all the time, it's a bit more of a of a change. And I remember I just sort of heard it, overheard it once. It was like we we feel like we're glorified bods, and I just had to pull them in at one point and just go, that is not how I see you, that is not how this structure works, and and and things. So interesting that that that was one of the ones where you find it found it the most challenging.

SPEAKER_00: 14:06

Yeah, I think, and again, if you look at the sort of generation of um where people were in their careers, the senior corporals and the sergeants at the time that you served were all veterans of every crunch operation that had taken place, you know. And I think a lot of these lads joined off the back of that, and then they've fairly swiftly become alliance corporal. And I think what you had is junior NCOs that just we were very lucky, and we the regiment is still very lucky today with its junior NCOs and senior NCOs. It's a real bloodline, you know, and it takes people forward, they're the ones that you know do the business, and everything else in the wider army is there to support them, you know. We need to remember that. And I think they were part of that generation where they just want to take the ball by the horns and go for it, you know. Um, I don't I never think that they always thought that the NCOs were incompetent, certainly not, because you and also a lot of the time those NCOs are trained in junior NCOs, the Lance Corporals, you know. And I just think when you've got a really proactive organisation, there's bound to be a little bit of that, you know. When I'm trying to get noticed there, I'm trying to get my foot in the door, I want to grow as a leader, but everyone else around me is a bit of an alpha. Yeah, it's hard to sort of you know get in and get myself recognised. I think there's a bit of that, you know. And I think the Queen's Division courses cell that runs our NCO division, it's like the household division of I think they've still got their PA PRC, whatever it is, their NCO wing that they do with the parrows and guards. It um they're so fit for purpose, you know, and it's every course they do is the same rather than the battalion trying to run something, you know. My NCO carter, I just remember running around Sandy Bridge training area, literally running around Sandy Bridge training area, doing a lap of the area, not learning a lot, just getting beasted and just trying to survive. Whereas now that you know they learn and they want to put that into action, I think, you know. Um, but like I said, when you've got you're surrounded by good people, it can sometimes be hard to sort of stand out a little bit, you know. Yeah. I think that's my view of that, and that's certainly what I saw, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 16:00

Yeah, it's it's interesting, it's sort of taking me back to when I when I first rocked up. I I never was an adjutant, I was in the adjutant's office a few times and not sat behind the desk, but uh, but I remember rocking up and and suddenly having Templatoon in front of me, and there was a bit of um, you know, I just finished PCD and all of my section commanders at that point had been other officers that were just practicing and whatever. And you turn up and you look at them, and you're like, oh my word, this is an intimidating bunch of men right in front of me. Great, great people. Um, and yeah, really privileged to have the opportunity to lead them. You also mentioned your time as an instructor being really rewarding. You served as an instructor for longer than I did, but I found it tremendously rewarding. And I think what people sometimes that haven't been an instructor might not realize is how much you learn from that process of you learn more about the tactical side because you're having to deliver it, and you know, there's no better way to learn than to teach. Um, but also you you have to learn how to develop people outside of just a tactical scenario, know when to push them a bit further forward. And I guess you get that from battalion as well, but I really found it in training because they were civilians, or in your your case, civilians, or or also on promotion carders. How did you find that in instructor piece?

SPEAKER_00: 17:16

I loved it, and you know, and I was I was very fortunate that I really I idolised both my instructors in training. So phase one, I had a guy from T or Langan, phase two, in fact, both phase one and phase two. I had uh instructors from the second battalion, me going to the first battalion, there's a lot of rivalry and stuff, as you know. Well, they certainly used to be, and I idolised, you know, I thought they were great, they were such good, everything I thought they were rough around the edges, they really worried about what was important, um, a lot of banter, you know, but they're genuinely invested in in putting the time into people to bring them on. And I just remember thinking that that must be a rewarding gig, you know, and turning people from Joe Public who might have nothing, you know. Some of the you've seen it yourself, some of the soldiers turn up they don't know how to wash, you know, they don't know just how to live on their own. And when you see them passing out, you know, with a family around them, it's an incredibly rewarding feeling. And I'm of the age now where a lot of the guys I trained are some of them are LEs, which makes me want to throw up, but um, a lot of the guys from Harrogat are now regimental sergeant majors, company sergeant majors, and it's fantastic, you know. So you've given people a shot of the title to really make something of their life, you know, and I found it so rewarding, you know, especially when you had like the best recruit and things like a best shot, whatever it might be. Um, and Harrogat was sort of a junior leader place, so I think I had a junior regimental sergeant major who's a fuselier. I think he's just got out of the army, actually, but um yeah, I'm sure he marched a parade on and off, you know. So really cool. Better than I could ever march him off. As you know, I'm not no drill pig, but um, yeah, utterly, utterly rewarding, you know, and just sort of giving people a setting on their compass to go and make something of their life, you know, it's thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyable. And and I know you were the same, but the amount of time that you put into certain individuals, people that are struggling, you know, and I look back now and I can name a couple of recruits, but I put so much energy to in the evenings, you know. Uh, and it all paid off for the most part. And I think working in a training team is good as well because you were working with like-minded people, you know, and that's thoroughly enjoyable. My time at Brecon for me, you know, was like I said earlier, two of the most rewarding years, you know. One of the courses I did was a PCD course, so I took a platoon of platoon commanders through the jungle in Belize, which was really good, and we'll probably touch on that a bit later. But um, yeah, time at depot and time as an instructor is not only your chance to give back, but you're genuinely investing in the future fighting power of the army, yeah. You know, um, and to see these people do well, it's not for everyone, not everyone gets through, you know. But you can if you can go to bed at night saying that you've done your bit, you know, and made the right decisions on people, then it's I think it's great.

SPEAKER_02: 19:51

Yeah, but we I remember there was a strong cohort of Fijian lads in my platoon, and you know, they've had to go through a lot to get to that. Place and um they've obviously got their own culture and their own rank system within that culture where there's also a lot of pressure on them, and you know, everyone's proud when they pass out. But I remember this this one lad like welling up and it choked me up. I was stood next to him and it really choked me up, and I remember giving him his final report, and he'd gone off to a really rough start, he didn't speak amazing English, and then I actually had him as my Jim P gunner on a few exercises, and he was unbelievable. And I remember giving him his report, and I was like, You've absolutely smashed this, like, well done. And he didn't really understand what I was saying, kind of, but uh after a bit of trying to explain it, um, he started welling up again, and I was like, Fucking hell, mate, I'm gonna go in like this. Is like really, really, really proud. Um, yeah, awesome. Uh what you mentioned sort of the platoon commander's division there. Should we just touch on that quickly? How was that experience?

SPEAKER_00: 20:49

Yeah, do you know what? And uh I think my takeaway, it wasn't a planned thing. So my training team on senior did for it was towards the end of my time at the battle school, and um every training team goes away on a S T short-term training team somewhere. And I was sort of holding up for Uganda because one, I thought it might be a little bit punchy and it just might be a bit different. Um, it didn't come around, so we ended up going to Bleas. I took three guys out there and we um were training the Belizean army just in low-level tactics, and then one of the instructors, a guy called John, got bit in the hand by a dog, uh, so he couldn't go into the canopy of the jungle. So I got asked to step up and take his um take his platoon in. So, bit of a funny dip. I was in a in a bar called Mark's Bar, which is just outside of camp. Had a great night in there, um, getting really drunk, run by an ex-soldier, and uh worst hang on hangover in my life in the morning. Got asked, will I go forward into the canopy? And I said yes. I said, when I've got to be ready, about 40 minutes. So I was deployed into the jungle, one pair of socks, uh hammock, and a bottle of water, thinking, yeah, this will be fine. Uh got out there, luckily wasn't on anything initially, and then met up with a platoon uh and took them through. And and I was really struck by the difference in and it I I think looking back, it was as I expect now. So I'd done probably six senior Brecken courses at this time. Uh, and what I saw from the students were a mix of people that wanted to be there, some didn't. They just knew it was part of the journey. They had to do seniors to become a sergeant. Some of them wanted to set the wild light, you know, and they were very, very, very aggressive, very mixed levels of fitness, very mixed levels of understanding, things like the combat estimate and you know, the wider picture. And then when I go fast forward into the jungle with the platoon commanders, very, very bright, all extremely fit and all sponges for information, you know, well-humoured, not very aggressive. Um, and as I'd expect, it and the combination of the two, when you put them at the start line, I just think it works. You know, you've got all the ingredients there to have a good fighting force. Um, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Um, some really sort of funny times, very rewarding times. Again, a lot of people we had to put a lot of energy into a couple of students where we'd get other platoons to look at them in appointment because we just weren't seeing what we wanted to see. Um, so to give an unbiased opinion, we'd move them elsewhere. And luckily, everyone got through and really good. And bearing in mind that these young officers had within the space of probably 15 months at that point gone from being Joe Civvy to them being in the jungle from Platoon Commander's division doing close quarter section attacks, platoon attacks. It's a lot to ask of them, and I was just thoroughly impressed. You know, it was it was really, really rewarding. Um, I still keep in touch with a few of the officers today, all doing really well now. A couple of route, you know, in the private sector. But yeah, I really enjoyed that. Um, some funny ditts, you know. I took um Chris Martin through Coldplay, his brother was one of the students, and I think he went to the Yorks. Uh, and I seem to remember catching him at a really low point in a shell scrape in the jungle where I was like, mate, how you doing? Yeah, I'm good. I was like, why are you facing into the harbour and not out? And he couldn't give me an answer. His claymore clacker was in shit state, his jungle hat was all wonky. What's your brother doing in a minute? Well, he's probably sat on the sofa with Gwynneth in LA. I was like, Yeah, there's only one winner here. Yeah, but no, really good fun. And um, yeah, again, very, very rewarding, you know, and and to see people that are so full of passion to do well, and it was really good.

SPEAKER_02: 24:19

Yeah, you've just uh whether this stays and I don't know, but you've just got a dip uh that's coming back from me is I went through Sanders in Brecon with Big Phil Campion's son. Oh, yeah, he's a great bloke, like really, really top guy and really good operator as well. And uh I remember one day we were doing some sort of casualty evacuation thing in Brecon and it was hideous and getting really beasted, and they were they just switch fired the DS, but like the colour guys were like, let's just give him a bit of shit, see how he reacts. And he's a big lad, big personality. They were giving a shit, and Big Phil had just released his book, uh Born Fearless, which could read if you if you know you're out there. Um, and they were giving him a shit and they were like, What would your dad think of you right now? And he just turned around and he went, Why don't you buy his fucking book and find out who you are? He's like, Oh my god. But the colour men loved it. I was like, really good, really good banter. Um okay, awesome. I I love that about the sort of difference in uh aggression and being sponges. Um, yeah, I I probably learned that the hard way of trying to maybe be a bit too aggressive at times and realising other people could do it far better than I can.

SPEAKER_00: 25:20

Yeah, and I and I do you know what? There was one experience where uh there was an officer from the guards, very well spoken, very well-to-do, very good. And he delivered a set of orders and he said, Look, action on the position, I want you to plunge cold steel into the enemy. And I went, Stop, you can't pull that off, mate. You know, that's for your platoon sergeant. When you say plunge cold steel, I think two robots making love, you know. Um, yeah, he just didn't have it about him, but yeah, ultimately. Um, and he he took the point on board, everyone laughed, and it sort of broke the ice a bit because it was pretty miserable, it was raining. But yeah, it was great, and uh they just they wanted to learn and they wanted to deliver, you know, and it was it was really refreshing for me, and it was just by chance that that happened, you know. I was senior Brecken uh for that solid two years, but so that was a nice little bonus for me to finish on. Yeah, really good.

SPEAKER_02: 26:07

Yeah, awesome. Um, let's move on, and and we we we've kind of touched on it, but I'm particularly curious to understand how you know you've served at every soldier rank available. How has your experience with officers in opinion on officers developed over that career? And yeah, what's your what's your sort of take on that?

SPEAKER_00: 26:27

Yeah, I I think so. When I joined back in the mid-90s, it was everyone was quite in their silos, you know. I didn't need to understand what an officer went through to get into the battalion. I just knew that I was gonna have an officer as a platoon commander, you know. Their journey didn't particularly uh interest me, but I always wanted to look at them for guidance, you know. And I think as it it was only sort of later on in life, certainly when you become a corporal, then you become a sergeant and you work directly with a platoon commander and run and run a platoon, and then every rank after you're intimate involved with officers, you know. I it's not that I never had respect for officers, but it just the respect I did have grew very, very rapidly, you know. Uh, and I I go back to the point of if you think about a young officer's journey, they go from interview to taking over a fighting organisation within let's say 18 months. It's incredible, you know. And people like me that have the luxury of having 22, 24 years to become a leader, they're asked to do it in such a short period of time. Um, so my I've got nothing but respect, and it, you know, it's just you peel that back, it's the fact that people want to step forward and do their bit and they want to lead, you know, and it's I don't think there's anything more rewarding in life, certainly in the military, than having the absolute you get to lead men and women of the British Army, the Navy, the Air Force, whatever it might be, you know. Um so the fact that they've stepped forward immediately, you know, my respect goes for the roof of them. Um, and some of them just take a different journey, some need more work, you know, some have to work a little bit harder, you know, to get it. But um, and I think we were very lucky in our regiment where, and it's even you know, back to the early days of my career, I've never seen nobody wants to see an officer fail. You know, they want them to come in, they want to be embraced, and they want to be shown the way, you know, and and you need platoon commanders, it's as simple as that. So, why would you be in an organization that wants to immediately put barriers up, you know, um turn people off from doing their job? We were very lucky in that classless environment that we had in our regiment, you know. Um I was very, very fortunate in the respect that I can there weren't many officers that I can think of during my time that did not have entirely the good and benefit of their people at the forefront of their mind, you know, uh, and I and it just rubbed off of me all the time. I don't know, I'll name a few people, but Guy Foden, when he was CO, he genuinely cared about his soldiers. You know, I was the fire in the belly, and he was the guy that wanted to make sure that everyone was alright, you know. Um when I was RKMS, the quartermaster, Ian Robinson, wanted to make sure the blokes were alright. You know, I was company serve major on my OC, Marty Melia, did nothing but care about the blokes. You know, Don Biddick, when I was my first platoon commander, cared about the blokes, you know, and we and I'm sure it happens elsewhere in the army, but ultimately we genuinely got it right as a family, you know, and everyone had the right sort of mindset. And those that didn't, the the few that the very few that I saw didn't go on to do very well, funny enough, because you know it's you can't hide that that attitude, you know. Um so yeah, I'm like every soldier that joins, my I paid a bit more of an interest the higher up the ranks I went, I suppose. Um and now I've got nothing but respect for officers.

SPEAKER_02: 29:50

Yeah, it's really fascinating to hear you speak like that. And I I think if there's any aspiring officers or you know, young officers going through stand hers, officer cadets, or new platoon commanders um that regularly interact with some of my stuff, you may have seen in the comments that there's some negativity that around the officer cohort, and it exists. I don't think we should get away from the fact it exists, but my experience was far from that. There's a healthy banter, uh, which sometimes gets a little bit annoying at times, but overall it's really healthy. And, you know, I'm not discrediting anyone's experience. You might have had a bad run in with officers or anything, but um, especially in our battalion, there was a really good connection between the soldiers and the officers, particularly the officers and the sergeant's mess and the junior NCOs as well. And I felt largely just nothing but supported, uh, which is what I needed as well. And I think sometimes if you absorb some of the negativity, it can make it feel like all the soldier cohort is against you. And whilst that might be true in some cases, I I really don't think it is is the you know, it's an exception to the rule. I don't think it is the rule at all. Um, so yeah, it's really interesting to to hear you sort of speak so so fondly of them. Um maybe we'll just get into sort of your your thoughts on what soldiers expect, because I remember um receiving a bit of a a brief when I first rocked up to actually before I got there, of um one of the captains in the battalion came to Sandhurst and basically was like, Okay, you guys are welcome to the regiment, blah, blah. Here's a couple of books you should read, and and he sort of just went through look, this is kind of what you should expect in your first six months. What's your take on it?

SPEAKER_00: 31:29

Yeah, um, I had a feeling this question was gonna come, and I was I sort of did a put a bit of science behind this and sort of cast my mind back. And I think the first thing is, and I think Sam said this a couple of podcasts ago, but one, you've got to turn up up for it, you know, because and it goes it's the social osmosis piece, you know. If you've got a platoon that you know is about to take on and onboard a new platoon commander and you're about to run that organisation, you can't be anything but up for it, you know. And you've got to want to look for it, you've got to want to fight, you've got to want to lead, you know. And if you don't, the cracks will start to show and people will understand it. Um, they'll understand the fact that you know, is this bloke up for it? And the blokes will talk, you know. I don't want people to be daunted by that because you'll I think you when you come out of the academy and then P uhmander's division, you are fully charged, ready to go, you know, and the blokes will love that, they'll love that energy that you bring because like everything, people that do a job for two years, towards the end, they can't not start thinking about the next role. So you might find that not performance dips, but you might not be giving your people the attention that they deserve. So when a new young officer comes in with all that energy, they will soak that up, you know, and it really resets the soldiers as well. I think um, and again, I the I made the point earlier, but nobody wants to see you fail, you know. Everyone is there to support you, and you you will always have so much knowledge within that platoon, you know. I think ask questions, let your soldiers be heard um because some of them have got great ideas, you know. You might not have any intention of following Private Smith's plan to do this sexual platoon attack, but listen to him because you might just have one little gem, Sir, we did this once, worked really well, very similar sort of ground. What do you think? I love it, mate, but we're gonna do it this way because of you know, uh, and that that sort of leads me into making sure you guys understand the why. You know, it's such a well-used phrase nowadays, but you know, being a mushroom, kept in the dark, fed on shit, nobody wants that, you know. Your soldiers need to understand the why because the generation of soldier now, I believe, understands the bigger picture better than I ever did as a private. Um so make sure they know why they're doing what they're doing is very, very important. Never step on your sex commander's toes. I think that's one of the worst things a young platoon commander can do. And again, I'm I'm this is very infantry-based because it's the world that I'm from, but I imagine that will work across all walks of life in the army. You know, your corporals and the NCOs that deliver violence on yours and the king's behalf, let them do their business. You know, they are all about the last 100 metres. You'll tell them what you need them to do, let them tell you how they're gonna do it, you know. And I think that's so key. Um, and that ultimately is the reason why you're there, you know, is for these people to destroy that position, to clear that position, whatever the mission statement might be. Don't get in their weeds, just let them do what they need to do and give them time to do that. And I've got a bit of an analogy later, which I'll sort of talk to you about. Um, well, I'll sort of summarise all that really. But um, and then I think just be on the understanding that you're not gonna have the soldiers know that you're not gonna have the answer to everything. And you know, we talk about the war fighting, the training, the running around with our weapon helmet, and kit on, that's all fine, but then the day-to-day stuff where you might be dealing with a 28, 30-year-old private who's going for a divorce, whose missus has took him for everything. You, as a young 21-year-old officer, won't have the answers for that. So the key there is to say to said soldier, look, mate, I don't know what the answer is, but we're gonna find this out together, you know, and take them on a journey to getting an end result. You know, you won't have the answers to everything. None of us have. As an old crusty RSM, I didn't have the answers to everything. Some of the problems that soldiers bring you are incredible. Um, and if you could write a book about them, it would be it'd be amazing. Um, I I had one soldier when I was a company start major who got himself into 30,000 pounds of debt on credit cards. This is just a blatant that lived in the block, you know. Um, I've never dealt with anything like that. I need the company commander, you know, and he was like, I've never really dealt with anything like that, but together we'll get them to where they need to be, you know. Um, and I think that's that's the main point there is just they're gonna look at you for leadership, be it in a gunfight, be it in barracks, be it in a pub fight, whatever it might be, they're gonna look at you, they're gonna glance over their shoulder and say, right, you're on, you know, I need you, I need you to lead me. Um, as forward thinking as they are, it's um yeah, it's it's very, very testing. And if you do that, that's a very easy to get right. It's also very easy to get wrong, you know. Don't make your soldiers' promises that you're not gonna back up. Yeah, I look into that. So you still haven't done that for me. Yeah, right, I'll give me another week. You still haven't done that for me. Well, you've lost them, you know. Yeah, um, leadership is as part of leadership journey, you know. Taking for me, leadership is taking people on a journey towards a clear horizon. And I've completely ripped off Alan Watt there. You know, he said, I think he said happiness is having a clear horizon, and I love that. And I think getting people to that clear horizon, and you're never gonna get there in the army, but it can be as clear as you can make it, it's that journey from A to B and getting them there, you know. And it's always gonna be undulating, it's gonna be turbulent, you know, no matter what sort of um environment that you're doing it in. But yeah, just make sure that you keep your word, yeah, you know, and you'll win them over, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 36:41

Yeah, I you we sort of mentioned it a lot, you know. We go from as as young officers, you start as sandhurst, fresh faced, and then 15 months later you stood in front of Temperatoon in my case, and and you're like, okay, cool, here we go. And I remember on my first day that I'd I'd completed the handover takeover and I walked in and uh a good lad, but my first impression was like I was on the back foot. I walked into the office and I've just done you know, all of the tactics failed. I'm good to go. Walked into the office and he goes, Are you the new boss? And I was like, Yes, Dan Russell, must have been. And he was like, I want to summon off. And I was like, I have no idea. I don't know how that works at all. And it was a humbling experience to think I'm good to go, and then first day, I have no idea about how this other stuff works. And I think there's a period of time which is that the first three, six months of battalion, you know, I always say to new officers is go around and meet everyone that you can. RSM, LEs, Thomas Mask, screws, like whatever, the the more people you know, the better. Go and have a brew if you can. Because a battalion's a big organization, and and you've no idea how it works at that point. You've just been on the conveyor belt, but now you're trying to facilitate a part of it rather than just receive from it all the time. Uh, and that can be a challenge. So, and then there's the other part of you know, I didn't go on exercise for I can't remember how long, but maybe like six months. And then when we deployed an exercise, I was like, oh, there's some significant skill failure. Let me spend the first day just getting my head back in the TAM and figuring out what on earth all this was again, because it you know, if you don't use it, you lose it. And I think that was a big bit. And and one final bit that just to reflect on is this platoon commander battle course versus platoon sergeant's battle course is what I've scribbled down. And um, I remember someone saying to me, uh, it was a platoon commander, so you could take this with a pinch of salt because it was an officer, but um, he said, like, platoon commander's battle course in relativity is definitely harder because we've done so much less at that point, and then you're thrown into a very arduous course. Whereas, you know, by the time you've done it, I mean, we've heard about your career already, like you've done loads, right? You're probably not learning anything that's wildly new to you at that point. You're just honing and refining skills in a different position that you might not have done. That's a really fair comment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I just remember suddenly reflecting in one one, you know, as a platoon commander being like, oh, actually, if my screw my screws have done way more attacks than I have, you know, especially as a section commander, I should trust their ability a bit more. And there's a quote which is uh delegate until you feel uncomfortable and then delegate some more. And in my first six to 12 months, I probably didn't do that enough. And most of the time, I was usually pleasantly surprised by what the result was, in camp or out of camp. Every now and then, you know, you learn from okay, maybe I should have had the reins a bit. But definitely on that side is um, you know, let them do their job because they've done it way more than you have as a new platoon commander. Doesn't mean you're not the boss, yeah. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:35

I mean that that's encroached on a point I'll have for later, but you I think what the young leaders going through the process at the minute need to understand is they are the boss and the soldiers will respect that. The men and women within the platoons will will get that completely, you know. But it goes back to my point about just be heard, you know, listen to what they've got to say, you know, because that's really humbling because they might come out of a gem every now and then, you know. I mean, quite. Fairly famously within the battalion, when I uh took over RSM, and I know we're going to touch on this later. I did a must have parade. Um, I don't even know if you're around for this, but it wasn't your everyday must-a parade. Where I'm not interested in things like iron trousers and haircuts and all that stuff. That's what my company site majors were for. I said to the battalion, I want you to get on parade and show me what you intend to fight in. You know, and it got the nickname the Alley Parade, and you know, which take it or leave it, whatever. But I genuinely had the focus of I wanted them to understand my mindset, you know, as the senior soldier, I am going to be a soldier. You know, I'm not gonna start wearing salmon fucking chinos all of a sudden because I'm the RSM. Um I want to see what you're gonna fight in. I want you to turn up in your helmet, webbing, day sack, rifle, war paint, and let me have a look at you. And I was blown away, you know. And the reason I've said this point is because I was going around and speaking to the guys, and there's always one bloke that stood out to me who's now UKSF, um, and his grenade pouches were at 45 degrees. And I sort of knew the answer he was gonna give me. I went, Why are your pouches on the wrong way? He goes, Well, the thing is uh when I'm in the last bound position and I go to get my grenade out, what I'm not doing is exposing myself, exposing my vital organs. Gravity's gonna help me. I've got the grenade, it just keeps me a lower profile. And I thought, wow, this guy knows his business, you know, and that's just through having a conversation with a private soldier, and within a minute, he's told me that he's passionate, he's up for it. And then you also see them that they've all spent 200 pounds on a day sack, 300 pounds on a set of webbing, you know, um aftermarket clothing, which I never really had an issue with that they'd wear, and that they wanted to look the part, you know, and I was thinking this is a complete lifestyle for these people, you know, it's not a job. I don't know what a private soldier was on at the time, maybe 1200 quid take-home, very broad brush, but and I was spending all their wages on kit, you know, and the kit wasn't bad, all the vertices and that had just come in at the time, and but they just wanted to look and feel like a soldier, and I was I found it really humbling, you know. And it goes back to the point of just talking to you, you learn so much from talking to soldiers, you know, and and understanding their mindset. And but yeah, and don't forget that you are the you're the leader, you're the boss, you know. Um there's a great uh poem that I I'm not gonna start citing poetry and you know putting wigs on and stuff, but um, I think it's a guy called Robert McGoff. And I I spoke about this when I wrote a paper for the Army uh Centre of Army Leadership. Um, and I was waiting to get promoted to sergeant, and I went for a piss in the company office in the toilet, not in the office. And there was a thing staring at me, and there's a poem by a guy called Robert McGough, and the poem went something along these lines, and it was in the form of a London Underground tube thing, and it said, I really want to be the leader, please let me be the leader. I'll be such a good leader. I want to be the leader. No, you're not ready to be the leader. Oh, go on, I'll be a great leader. Okay, you're the leader, great, thanks. Okay, so what do we do? Yeah, you know, and I just remember that hitting me like a train thinking, is the guy really good at leadership because he's listening to the voice of his people, or is he incompetent? You know, yeah, I just think you know, listening to the advice of your soldiers, but ultimately you make the decision is really key, you know, and it's it's one of the things that will sort of when you build that relationship quicker. I think, you know, listen, let them be heard. Some of them will come out with some absolutely batshit crazy stuff, but that's great, you know, and that's good fun. But some of them will come out with something that might save the day.

SPEAKER_02: 43:22

Yeah, I remember final exercise at Catarics, a training platoon, and a lad who went Vikings and is doing exceptionally well now, um, just on an absolute career stormer. He uh we were launching onto a woodblock, a bit of fee waf, and and I remember I'm about to launch him, and he was going to be one of the sweeps or cut-as, I can't quite remember what it was. But anyway, he was he was sort of launching in uh I remember he said, Sir, I'm just a bit concerned that we might get hit by envelope fire. And I was like, Well, firstly, that's my job to worry about, but but I am so impressed, and I can't remember what question I asked that prompted it, but it was a bit that sort of hit me to be like, some of these guys are super switched on here. The terminology that they're using, like when we pick that up, I don't even say that that often. Um, and it was it was just really good stuff. So, yeah, I think the the value of just being a normal person, having a chat, yeah, you might be a second lieutenant captain, but and actually, do you know what? I I feel really passionately that I got a lot better at this when I kind of forgot that put the rank to one side a bit in yes, I'm an officer and whatever, but actually when I started just chatting with people like a normal bloke, I think people received me a lot better and I just got way more out of them as well. And probably that's when I started to settle into my own authentic style. Took me a while to figure out what that was, to be honest with you. Um, but then you relax into it, and everything seems a lot easier, and it's probably because I wasn't running around trying to do it all myself and and not really knowing what I'm doing. I'm just like, yeah, he's a site major, he'll sort that.

SPEAKER_00: 44:56

Yeah, and I um you have to let people fail as well, you know. And I don't say that in a derogatory way, or we don't want to see anyone fail, but if you're in training or in camp, let people make mistakes because they'll only make it once, you know, and they learn so much from it. And you know, your point there, Guy Froden, when he was a CEO, he'd say to me, Right, I'm going around the incel, the incel being the smoking areas of the camp, and I'll be like, right, I'll come with you. He goes, No, no, I don't need you. And he'd stand there smoking with the blokes and just he'd learn so much about them, you know. He'd come back and say, You know, I don't know, I think morale's down a bit in whatever company, you know. I've just it's realised they're doing a lot, aren't they? I'd be like, Yeah, they are. Well, let's look at it, you know, and just being a human being, you know, it's sort of uh there's so much to be said about it, you know, um, and just understanding your people. And it's and Guy Fadem was great at that, you know. All a lot of the officers that I've had were were particularly good at that. Listen to the voice of the people, you know, the soldiers, and the boys and girls have got so much good to say, yeah, but and just enjoy the lunatics that come out of things that will make you think, what you dig a dig a shell scrape with the blokes, yeah, yeah, and you'll learn a lot about them.

SPEAKER_02: 46:00

Um one shovel, yeah, yeah, and a pack of bifters. Awesome. Um, well, look, let's let's maybe move on to I've written down here is the next prompt, um, go sort of your operational experience, uh, particularly maybe as a platoon sergeant on tour, and I've heard you speak about this on another podcast, and obviously we had Sam on who is your platoon commander, but I'd love to hear and and sort of share with people, you know, what your priorities are as a platoon sergeant, and then how you handle you with all your operational experience, taking a new platoon commander on tour for the first time. How how was all of that?

SPEAKER_00: 46:36

Yeah, so we're really referring to Herit 6 here. So it's the summer of 2007, and for me, it was the the pinnacle of my time in in the British Army, and you know, and I did some great stuff, but that was it was a very peculiar tour because it was before the ID threat came in, you know. So, what we were doing was conventional war fighting, left, centre, right, you know, on a daily basis. Um my relationship with Sam was I went into it with the view of as my one of my first functions is I'm there solely to support that platoon commander. Because if you get that relationship wrong, the detrimental effects on the soldiers that you've got in your command will it will just go downhill so quickly. Um, so I wanted to I met him, wanted to understand him. You know, we went out for a few beers and a meal. I said, Look, this is my view on it. What do you think? And we were just both completely aligned with how we wanted to do it, you know. Sam had a bit about him, he he was very, very bright, very well-humoured, very aggressive. Um, and I said, Look, I want to make our pre-deployment training as robust as we can, and that for me is where I think we built the foundation for such a successful tour, you know. Um, the other platoons in the company were fantastic, you know, and I would go and fight with any one of them tomorrow, but I just felt we had a bit more of an aggressive edge, um, which brought its own challenges as well at times. But yeah, so my first role was to understand and support Sam as best I could, and I'm also there as the ambassador for what is physically and morally wrong and right, you know. Um, I wanted the blokes to be fit, I wanted them to make good decisions on bad days. Um, I wanted them to be up for it and have the mindset of wanting to go forward all the time, you know, but also understanding the bigger picture. And I think that stems from me. I wanted to grow the such commanders as a platoon sergeant. And interestingly, all of my such commanders on that tour had been in longer than me by about a year, you know. So time served, they had more time under the belt, but I had a bit more experience and I'd done the courses, and it's just the way that you know the lay of the land for that tour, but it didn't impact us in the slightest, you know. Um, and all of them, I I had a vision in my mind of what they needed to be, you know, they needed to be aggressive, they needed to be forward thinking, they needed to be supportive of the platoon commander, which they were. Um, and I think Sam alluded to the fact that one of them, you know, he wasn't up for the challenge, you know, and we didn't really see that until about six weeks in. And I say that at the point where this guy had probably been in about 30 gunfights at that time, he just had a young daughter, he was like that, you know, sent for me. And I I really respect him for putting his hands up and saying that I can't do this, you know. And bearing in mind that my first gunfight was on that tour, and I was probably in about 12 years at that point, you know. So we were all going for this sort of new experience together, but um you know, and it he we removed him, inserted uh someone else, and a section to our C stepped up for a period of time, and they were fantastic, you know. Um and you're also there to sort of keep the wolves from the platoon commander's door, you know. And I mean, if you get any rumblings of sort of bad attitude or um bad opinions, or you know, the guys are just starting to go down little rabbit holes here and there. It's my job to sort of get them out, put them on the tracks again, so Sam or the platoon commander can completely focus on on his job at hand, and yeah, it was it was uh you're the the voice of experience, uh, and ultimately you're there to care for your people. I used to say that the platoon sergeant is the dad of the platoon and the platoon commander is the mum, but no, it's a two-dad organization. I think um I just happen to be uh the more experienced one that you know, and it's um a completely rewarding experience, and that was a very kinetic tour. And I think there was a period of about a week during that whole time where we weren't involved in engagement with the enemy, you know. Um some very, very dark days, some very, very proud days, you know. Um and I think it has to be said that you've got to two things I want to say off the back of that. I learned how to lead on operations through the generations before me that had served in Northern Ireland, you know, um learning how to work in small teams, learning how to understand the presence of the abnormal, which was huge for Afghanistan. We learned that on the streets of Northern Ireland. Uh, learning how to embrace officers into the team, newly promoted NCOs. Um I had so many positive role models in my early days in the army, mainly senior NCOs that had been through the island days of the 80s and 90s when it was a real, you know, a real a real kicker. Um that's something that I think the next generation of war, war fighting, whatever it might be, they'll learn lessons from what we did in Afghanistan, which is now completely old news. But I think that's such a key point.

SPEAKER_02: 51:22

Um I mean, there's uh a few bits that you've mentioned there. I'm currently rereading The Habit of Excellence, which was uh written by the Cal, Centre of Army Leadership, right? A guy called Lieutenant Colonel, mainly sharp. And um there's a bit in there where it says you have to say sometimes that there's two things I want to say. The first bit it says is that it uses a story of I think it was World War II, um, and one of the commanders had pushed one of the section commanders to the point of neuro to basically, you know, you like you said, they're 30 gun fights. Who knows what the limit is for people? But as a commander, it's kind of your role to try and spot when that might be. And he in this book says sometimes you need to save them from themselves, they'll want to keep going and keep going, and you need to spot when there's a chink in the armour because we only have a mental capacity to to withstand so much, and it varies on the individual. Um, and then I think there's the the other part about uh training, and we've spoken a lot about you know, have the best thoughts for the soldiers, etc. And opinion of officers and etc. But sometimes your decision won't be in it'll be in their best interest, but they won't like that. Training them really hard is probably at the time something they're like, I'd rather not do this again. I'd rather not walk back 2K to the start of this lane and do the whole fucking thing again. And then there was a bit in there when a young lieutenant had said that they deployed to Afghanistan, I think it was Afghanistan, and uh maybe it was Northern Ireland actually. And their company commander in that pre-deployment training phase had basically tried to screw the nut for the blokes a lot. And I think they'd do a tab, slightly lighter scales, they'd have some some fizzy drinks at the end of it, and it was a bit more chilled. And the lieutenant, you know, on record in the book, it says, you know, he'd actually failed us because when we deployed, we weren't ready, we weren't robust enough to withstand what was coming. And I think there's a bit there about sometimes your decision making is in their best interest, but it uh in the organization's best interest, which is what you're you're a commander, but it might not go down well at the time. And I reflect on a lot of decisions that I might have made, like I want you to go on this course, I don't want to do it. And it's like, trust me, in two years' time you might regret not taking the opportunity now or whatever that decision is.

SPEAKER_00: 53:39

Yeah, that's great. And I goes back to the piece about understanding the why. I remember our pre-deployment training for Kenya, uh, for Afghanistan. We went to Kenya for six weeks, and we had about a three-day period where we were given a bit of real estate, and we could run our own platoon level ranges. And I said, this is a chance now to harden the blokes up. Uh, and I went to the cookhouse, got about a thousand paper plates, and I just stuck them in the bushes. The blokes could see them, and I just finished reading the book about the Maxov in Vietnam and how small groups of men would send a message to the enemy by being very aggressive on their return fire policies. So I said to the blokes, look, when we come under engagement, we turn around, take cover, return appropriate fire, all of that good stuff. But I don't want any of this two or three rounds of nonsense, half a magazine each, because you're set in a condition then that you are up for it. I want them to think they've hit something bigger than what they thought they'd hit. And we run this range out there where I'll just say, Look, I want you to walk that way. When I blow my whistle, contact left, I'd give a casualty and we'd extract them about 600 metres, honking. And we did that all day, every day, all of us, you know. Uh, and then we got to Afghanistan. If our platoon was the first to come on a contact, you knew it was Templatoon, you know, and it wasn't it was all within the rules of engagement, you know, all completely controlled, well-aimed shots, but we sent a message to the enemy that we are up for it, and you've really fucked up it, you know. Um so the robustness in training for me is key, and that's why we're really lucky to have uh Sandhurst and Brecon. You know, um, there is no better tests of leadership in those environments like long reach, the fan dance on Brecon. You know, you're moving an organization of men and women over arduous train that are fatigued, carrying equipment that it's so fit for purpose, you know, because you really start to see where people's backbone is, you know. Um and the the point I sort of I missed out earlier is that just the last thing I'll talk about being a platoon sergeant is what you know is you're there to care for the people, you know, care under fire, care in barracks, care on leave if you've got a problem, and you're really there to sort of support them. And I I was very lucky in my in my growth in the army in the battalion where all of these role models I had, from corporal to company sergeant major, brought me up the right way. You know, it's about bringing yourselves up internally, and yeah, and I think I think they're the they're the sort of main hitters for me. But it's um if you support a platoon commander straight away, you're setting the conditions to you'll you're generating a good environment for people to work, you know, is so key. It's the most important relationship in the infantry, I feel.

SPEAKER_02: 56:12

Yeah, yeah. For for anyone that wants to go, we won't have the time today to go into loads of detail about it, but for anyone that wants more, you've got your own podcast. Well, but on behalf of the regiment, strength from within. Uh, and there's a few episodes on there where you go pretty pretty deep into some specific details. Is there any quick ones that you want to share for today?

SPEAKER_00: 56:29

Um, not really. I I think that fits. I've I've got some things I'd like to sort of discuss today, but um, yeah, just a few sort of different scenarios in very particular parts of my combat experience, you know, where so many lessons came out of it. Uh and I just knew then that we we got it all right, you know, in our peed appointment training and during the operation. But yeah, the strength from within podcast will sort of signpost you towards that, and we go into a lot of depth about it with the people that are actually there. So yeah, yeah, it's really good. And and the relationship between me and Sam, I th I feel we did a good job of explaining, and you know, and it might give the people that are going through starting the leadership journey an idea of what's expected from you, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 57:07

Yeah, I uh I listened to to the one with Sam, and there's a a a large part of me that was um envious of what you guys experienced as a sort of infantry platoon commander that never got to deploy on those sorts of operations. Uh it shows you sort of the the ruthless edge, but also we've you know we've been trained to do it. Um so yeah, there was a lot of me, and then I listened to the one with Alex, and it just hammered home some of the realities of war for me. Um I remember sort of stopping what I was doing and just sitting down and just taking a moment to absorb what he was saying, and I was like, this is really hard-hitting stuff. So if you are any aspiring particular mod, I'll put the link in the description. Make sure you check it out. Um, Steve, I'd like to just come on to uh sort of towards the the end of this, where we just want to before we wrap up with some final bits of advice to the next generation. I'd love to just hear what it's like being the RSM.

SPEAKER_00: 57:58

Yeah, I mean it's it's uh it will always be the big the biggest privilege of my life is to be the senior soldier for my battalion that I love so much, you know. Um and I was I was very unorthodox as an RSM. Uh and I remember driving, I was living in Brecon at the time, and I remember being told that I was gonna be the regimental sergeant major. I was over the moon. And I thought, right, so what is the RSM? You know, and it's just two words, it's the senior soldier, you know. So I said to myself that I weren't gonna change overnight and be that guy that starts wearing chinos and reading the times and all that sort of nonsense. Um, I'm still the bloke that goes down the pub in a motorhead t-shirt, you know. Um the Aggie, the Aggie, the Aggie. Um but yeah, I was very unorthodox in the respect that, like I said earlier, I wasn't interested in the bullshit, I was interested in the output of the soldiers, you know, and I feel that I got that point across pretty well. Um it's a it's a huge privilege, and it was really for me the culmination of my sort of leadership journey. And I thought, you know, I'm probably not going to learn much more now about how I'm going to lead, not about leadership, but how I'm going to deliver leadership to people. Uh, and I just tried to be the best example of that, you know. Um, and it was quite a tricky time for me, which I'll talk about in my closing points because life took over to an extent, but I I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. And getting to see the organisation from the top corridor, uh, and at the time I think we're in about six or seven different countries. So me and the CO were flying around visiting all the all the boys and girls that were just doing nothing but deliver on behalf of us, you know, it was really, really humbling. And I tried to sort of live by the analogy of my leadership style has always been I don't raise my voice any more than this. You know, I feel that the louder you are, the less noise you make. You know, there's two times that you should be yelling in a gunfight and in a nightclub. Um, and I've always stood by that. And just being able to talk to people and express how I felt, you know, I've I had a real good ability to do that. Very rarely did the soldiers let me down, but when they did, I could deliver a really good dach, you know. And I'd I'd I'd sort of hurt him a bit verbally and diplomat, oh you know, sir, I'm so sorry. Um, but yeah, it was a completely humbling experience, you know, and it's um I was very different to other RSMs, which I think is really healthy. Um, the guy that took over me, Big Larry, loved the drill and all that sort of stuff. Um, I marched a battalion through Gibraltar, and the only one out of step was me at the back. And people always say, Well, the RSM was never out of step. We fucking was on this day, um, but the blokes were were amazing, you know. Um, but it was such a great experience. And I used to try and make a point of where I could. Young officers that turned up, you know, I'd I say to him, Great to meet you, mate, come with me. And we go and clean the regiment memorial together outside and just have a chat with them, learn a bit about them, ask them why they under, you know, if they understood the importance of what we were doing, you know, brass o in a plaque with our foreigners' names on it, you know, just it sort of meant a lot to me. And and being that um being a heard voice again, you know, at that level, at battalion level, battle group level, you know. So at our biggest on uh Wessex Storm, we had a thousand soldiers, you know, in the battle group, so and it was good. And the CO and my relationship was very similar to that of mine and see uh mine and Sam's. You know, we were very aligned. Um I remember one of the great things that he did is when we did Wessex Storm and we got the battle groups together in Fetford before we took every man or woman on a bayonet fighting uh period just to send a message of you know, this is what the Vikings are all about, and then that carried over to Wessex Storm, and we did, you know, we did sort of particularly well, but yeah, it was great. And the leadership doesn't stop because you're the RSM, you know, people are coming to you with even more extreme problems, and people of rank, you know, up and above me were coming to me for advice. I've I found that very, very humbling. Um, yeah, it was great, you know. Um tainted for by a few things which I sort of close on. Um, but I I've thoroughly enjoyed the whole experience, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:51

Just before I forget, you mentioned the bayonet stuff there, and again, I sort of pointed to your podcast, which is I think I think people think the bayonet stuff was over the top, yeah, as in like you know, World War One, over the top, charge the enemy, and but you guys were going on patrol with it fixed, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:07

Yeah, we were, you know, and there was occasions where it was used on a regular basis, you know, and people that people that are against it and you know don't see the need for it. I personally feel, and this is the world according to Steve Alman, there is always going to be a need for men and women of the infantry to get into the cold dark corners, clear them corners, get into the rubble, get into the trench system, get into the bunker system, the building, whatever it is, and mop up and achieve the mission. You know, what the infantry warfare is advancing on a daily basis, you know, you've only got to look at what's going on in Ukraine to see that. And I know there's a lot of chat about you know unmanned air systems, and and that's all great, but you need to be in there, and the infantry's mission is to close within, destroy the enemy, isn't it? Ultimately, you know, and you need men and women to do that, and nobody we don't enjoy doing that, and it's quite sad that we have to do it, but if we're gonna do it, we're gonna set the conditions to do it as safely and professionally as we can, you know, and there's always gonna be a need for that, you know. Prostitution and war fighting are the two oldest um pastimes, and it's never gonna go away. Yeah, and I haven't got the head for prostitution, so um, you know, but it's um yeah, and we were, you know, there are a number of occasions where the bayonet was used on Heritage 6 and it's been used since, it's been used before, and ultimately it's the tool of the trade, and you know, it's very sad if you're getting to the point where you have to do that, you know, especially in this day and age, but there's always gonna be a need for it. Yeah, you know, I I really believe that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:30

Yeah, I think I was chatting to someone recently which has prompted that when you mentioned the word bayonet, is to like, well, hold on, this is this is a weapon, and it's and it's you know still available. The reason we the British Army trains with it is because it's still used you know, uh, or could be used in the future. So um just to go back to when you were the RSM, you mentioned a huge privilege, maybe just for the aspiring officers that are listening. What was your relationship like? I've got a dit here as well, but what was your relationship like with young officers? How would you, as the RSM, want that to be? And and if they're turning up to battalions soon, what would you what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:05

Yeah, so I mean, I can't speak for others, but my door was always open to young officers because, like I said earlier, you know, you understand the journey that they've been on to go from being a civilian to all of a sudden in charge of a fighting organisation that is probably well experienced. Um, so the door was always open to them, and I think that a bit of advice you've got to learn internally. We're really bad, in certainly in our regiment, in our battalions, of we've got so much rich history there. We've got our military cross winners, I'll mention dispatches winners, you know, people that were involved in some of the biggest events in in history over the years with regards to infantry combat. But we'd rather read about that and speak to the people that were there, you know. There is nothing wrong, and something that you said that you did, which I think is great, is go around, introduce yourself to people, you know, and take a bit of time to learn about them, learn about the events of that day or whatever it might be. Um, there were so many good lessons internally. We're just we're a very humble regiment, very humble battalion, and we we never did that. Um I used to start mess meetings by getting the youngest sergeant in the mess to read one of our Victoria Cross citations from a four-bear regiment because then you've heard the story, you know, it's it's it's a seed that's been planted. But just seek advice. And I'd want a platoon commander who is compassionate, is up for it, he's aggressive, he's polite, he's gentle, he's romantic, but he's also got the ability to be the most violent man in any room that he's in, and that's what you need to be in the infantry. You know, you need to be able to control that, you need to be able to seek advice rather than send your blokes up the river and say, I don't know what the answer is, or give them tough information because they'll suss you out, you know. Like I said earlier, take them on that journey to learn and fix that problem. Um, and it goes back to the point, you know, the thing I said earlier about no matter if it's up or down, just seek advice from people. You know, you can do it without losing face, and to talk to the RSM, the sergeant majors, the RKMS's in confidence is you can learn so much. Yeah, you know, it's always an open door policy. Yeah. That's still the case in our regiment now, I'm sure it is.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:05

Yeah, definitely. And I think you've obviously got so much experience. You mentioned five operational tours in Afghanistan alone, um, all the CADs and in sniper courses, etc. I think being able to go and chat to people like you and you know, future RSMs that have a similar sort of experience, right? That you know, there's so much experience uh to draw upon that I think if I was to be a platoon commander again, I would make even more of an effort. You know, I did go around camp and introduce myself, and especially amongst the LEs, some were really onside, and maybe others were a bit more standoff mission. That's fine, it's different styles, right? Um, but I've I definitely really appreciated that because I think there were times that the ones that took me under their wing, you know, uh they saved my bacon on a few counts when I'd fucked up somewhere and whatever, and and you need that help uh because you don't know what you'll end up in. Um, and just a bit of advice. And I think especially amongst the the uh senior soldiers of the battalion, where you've seen it all and you've done it all, it's kind of like a bit of an arm around the shoulder when I think the world's imploding because I've made a bad decision, you're like, it's really not that bad. You know, there's there's other things here, just learn from it and move it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:15

Nobody's got a tournique fitted. Yeah, it's all right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:17

No, yeah, exactly. Um awesome. I I I think there's some bits. Well, we we've kind of like there's advice littered throughout this, uh, throughout this podcast. But I guess to close, is there any sort of final bits to the next generation of Platoon Commanders?

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:31

Yeah, so I've got six points, and I think I've put a bit of energy into sort of thinking about this. And the first one is to don't let perfect get in the way of good. Um, if you do anything in the British Army that goes perfectly well, it probably wasn't worth doing in the first place. The only caveat caveat to that would probably be something like Troop in the Colour, you know, you want that to go as well as it can, but I'm really talking sort of operationally and and on the ground and in training now. If you get a good result with good people, um off the back of a good plan, then life is rosy. That's where you need to be. You'll never get perfect. I don't think you can commit 100% time to anything nowadays in the British Army, everything at most gets 80-90%. Perfect is something that you know you shouldn't be chasing. You know, don't let perfect get in the way of good. It's my first thing. Um never underestimate the benefit of conceptual study with your people. Um, I really believe in this, and I didn't believe in it until later on in life. To so, one very quick example is I used to I uh I'd get the sergeants mess in when I was RSM and we'd do conceptual study periods. Uh one example of that was we watched a fantastic documentary that I think is off the offline now, but it used to be called Only the Dead, and it's about an infantry platoon in Iraq, the in the American Army, and there were three different events in there that all had big repercussions. And I will I'd get the seniors to watch it over a beer and then we discuss it, you know. If you've got a spare half an hour, 40 minutes an hour, I don't suggest you fill your soldiers' time up with nonsense, but just say to them, right, tomorrow I want to talk about this, have a quick look at it tonight, you know, and then I want your views on it. You know, conceptual study with your people and getting their opinion, you'll learn so much about your soldiers, you know. You'll think, wow, he's a bright mind. I really like his take on that, you know. And then it might just start, maybe he should be looking at doing this within the battalion, or maybe he should be looking at doing that, you know, as a very crude example, but never underestimate the benefit of conceptual study. Political one, but never turn down a beer. Yeah, um, and the beer can be a brew, it can be a meal, it can just be half an hour having a cigarette with your soldiers, you know. If you've got the chance to spend time with them outside of uniform, I think there's real value in it, you know. And I know Sam spoke about it, but we'd go to barbecues, we'd meet the guys, girlfriends and wife's and boyfriends or whatever. Um, and there's a real value to that, you know, you'd understand because you might find out all of a sudden that this guy, his wife, is putting on a brave face, she's struggling with work, she's struggling with the kids. That is ultimately going to impact on him, you know, it's gonna impact the delivery of his work. And I'm not saying we do that just for that reason. There's a human element where we look after our people, but just learn your people by having a beer of them. You know, um, my dad used to say to me, to my detriment, never turn down a beer. You know, you learn so much about people, and sometimes people will offer you a beer or a brew because they want to, is there a possibility to have a chat with you here one-to-one? And you know, I've got an issue that needs helping with, and I think there's real sort of gravity to that. Um, we've said it already today, but you are the head of the organisation, you know, and you've done so well to get to your platoon troop, whatever it might be. Don't be afraid to make the decision. Expect a little bit of a ribbon if it goes wrong and you've turned down advice, but that will soon pass, you know. Be the one that makes the decisions, but don't lead in isolation, you know. Um where I got it wrong a couple of times is I made decisions on people where I put my neck on a line for them, and I look back now and think, I wish I hadn't of because it turns out there was more to it, or you know, seek the advice of others, I think, is is is the key there. But um yeah, you're you're the head, and you know, people expect you to lead, and they will spec you if you look, thanks for your advice, lads, but we're gonna do it this way, whatever it might be, you know, and and the guys will and guys and girls will adapt to that. This is quite a big one for me, but it's protect it's a three-pillar thing, which I is now my mission statement for the job that I'm in now, but protect, celebrate, and support your people. When I say protect them, I mean you know, if they've got a task to do. I said earlier that more often than not now, people are doing more than one job potentially. Protect them by making sure they've got the time, space, and resources to achieve whatever it is they need to achieve. You know, um, don't overload people with work. Protect them when you're out on patrol by making sure that you know you've got protection out, you've counted for flank interference, whatever it might be. Protect is protect, protect their time, you know, their time with their family, you know, their time off that they're they're owed or they're due. As best you can, keep the walls from the door and make sure that you you know you want to that. You celebrate people by you celebrate their strengths, clearly, uh, but you also celebrate their weaknesses. And I've got a bit of a dit here, which I think we're right for time for, but um if you're an Iron Man twice over and you are always winning company PT, well done, good luck to you. You're gonna get a pat on the back. When I did senior, well, his instructing at Brecon, I had a guard student who had been injured, he'd been on a post and he put a bit of weight on. And we did the Brecon Three Mile, which as you know is a howling event. The first K and a half is uphill and then it's undulating ground all the way to the end. And this guy was really worried about it. Uh, and I said to him, mate, I'm gonna run round this with you, we'll get you round. You know, I'm not gonna say anything to you because you're not gonna listen to me, but I'm gonna be on your shoulder. And if I'm if you stick with me, you're gonna get through. Now, there were three uh pass marks, I think it was competent, highly competent, and non-competent. Non-competent was over 33 minutes, so we're talking three miles with 35 pounds a kit, weapon, and helmet over hideous train. Highly competent was 28 to 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:13

I'm guessing it was lovely sunshine as well, was it?

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:15

No, completely not. A bit of ice on the ground, and uh and then competent uh highly competent was 30 minutes to 32 minutes, and this guy put himself in the hurt locker for half an hour. I didn't say one word to him running round that thing. He came in covered in his own sick, you know. He had dug out blind, he had his weapon held correctly for the whole thing, and he sent himself into a half an hour's worth of pain to do his best he could, and he'd come round in like 31 minutes, and I physically got him and put him in the pen for highly competent. So I was celebrating his weakness because there was a slight improvement, and I'd seen the effort that he put into it, you know. Um, I'll never forget that. And the guy dug out blind, he didn't just coast, you know, and do the minimal effort, he pushed himself, and I thought, well, if he's doing that for himself, he's gonna do that for his people, you know. So, yeah, celebrate your people, um, congratulate them on their strengths and their weaknesses. Um, and then finally, it's the support piece. I said to you earlier, my time as RSM was slightly hindered because it was just my dad was dying, and unfortunately, he died a year in, and it's quite a you know, quite uh quite a messy death. I was going for a divorce, albeit with a wonderful woman, it was very amicable. I had a bit of a health scare on at the time, and you know, I like to seek help from people, a few, you know, confidants that sort of got me through that. But um, just support your people is the point there. Life will take over, you know. There is a life outside of the military, you know, where people have got them, you know, them families that you know they did the hard work, you know, on on behalf of us. Um, you know, people's, you know, relatives, people you know, foreign commonwealth soldiers that have issues abroad, just support them as best you can. And like I said earlier, if you don't know the answer, find the answer and do that with them. Um, and then my last point is it's not what you've done, it's what you do. You are gonna make mistakes, be it in training, be it on operations, you know, just don't make the same mistake twice and learn from it. And when you do make that mistake, well, it's done now. What are you gonna do to remedy it? You know, and that's a real key thing. And I I like the uh the analogy of the game of Jenga. So before you go on every course, every posting, every role that you take over in the battalion or whatever firm that you're in, you start off with a fully stacked box of Jenga. And every time you fail a fitness event, you're late for a meeting, you have an integrity issue, god forbid, you're just taking them bricks away, and what you don't want to do is that tower to topple. And everything you do that's new in the army, just reset that, and then just have that analogy in your head. Um, it's not what you've done, it's what you do. You're gonna have bad days, and it's you know, it's never gonna go right. And when it does go right, you'll be like, you'll be waiting for something to come and kick you up the ass after. But um, you know, no plans of eyes contact, such a cliche, so true. You know, you'll plan to do A, B, and C, but it turns out you're gonna do A, C, and B, and then maybe D at the end. Um, yeah, so it's not what you've done, it's what you do, and they're my sort of you know, it's the world according to me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:14

Yeah, yeah. I think they're they're great. There's um I was gonna delve deep into some of them, but to be honest, I don't want to tarnish what you've said, I think you've put it perfectly. Um, mate, it's been great having you on uh to share your wisdom. It's a it's a weird full circle moment for me because you're on my RSB. Pain Muskle. Yeah, um, which is which is really good. Um, and I think there's there's moments, and probably just finish with a quick dit of I remember uh you were the RSM and we've been invited over to the sergeant's mess for Christmas, which happens I'm sure across the infantry, but it's a really big thing in in our battalion. And we it's the officers versus sergeant's mess football um in in the day, and then we get invited over to the to the evening do. And I remember going in there and you welcomed us and your platoon commanders with a big yard of ale uh during an army drinking ban, I'm sure what was going on and whatever was happening. So I appreciate that before I got spear tackled down the stairs later by uh by uh by one of the sergeants. But um, mate, it was uh it was great, and I mean what I said at the start, you know, your reputation uh was was evident from other people singing your praise, and I think that's still happening, right? I'm doing it now, Sam did it and and many others that I speak with. Um so I appreciate your support over the past year as well. Uh it's great to stay in contact. And um, yeah, thanks for sharing. So I guess guys, in terms of that, that's it for this episode. If you like this sort of content, please do click like, subscribe, click the bell so you can be notified every time I upload a video. If you're listening on Spotify or Apple, please, you know, give this a rating if you enjoy this episode. It really helps me out. And if you do know of anyone that will benefit from this, particularly aspiring officers or soldiers, please do share this with them because I think uh, as I said at the start, I get so many questions about how best to prepare. What is it from a soldier's perspective? And we've just heard exactly, you know, with with sort of all the raw material of exactly what that's like. So stick around for for next episode, um, and I will catch you next time. See you in a bit.